The Power of Couples Community

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:14

Clinton Munoz

Well, and then just to add to what you're saying, not only did you have all that you were going through, but I had these subtle expectations of what should happen in my marriage if I start to experience recovery. Right? And so those came out and those were really painful to go through, where once I have 30 days of sobriety, I expect her to just be excited for me and welcomed me back in with open arms.

00:00:20:14 - 00:00:35:22

Clinton Munoz

I'll never forget. I'll never forget going like 90 days of sobriety and I'm in my recovery group. My guys are going, man, Clinton, how are you going to celebrate 90 days? That's a big milestone. You've never done that before in your whole life. And I'm thinking, you know, I don't know. I'm going to think about that. And I get home and I go, charity.

00:00:35:24 - 00:01:15:17

Clinton Munoz

I talk to my guys and I think I'm going to buy a watch. You know, I'm going to buy an expensive watch to celebrate my sobriety. And she about throws a book at me and I'm sitting there going, wow. Why is my wife so mad at me? Look, look what I've done. And I'm just completely oblivious. Greg to her hurting, to her pain, to how she is going to interpret the words I'm saying, right?

00:01:15:19 - 00:01:42:01

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randy Everett, and today we are going to show you a great new installment featuring Clinton and Charity Munoz from Restored Tomorrow. They will join Doctor Greg Miller as they talk about the importance of couples in community. Here now is the Faithful and True podcast.

00:01:42:03 - 00:02:05:13

Greg Miller

So welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. And today we have Charity and Clinton Munoz with us. And they are couples, a couple that work with other couples. And they really have a passion for working with couples who have gone through some level of betrayal and providing the support, the encouragement that the couples may need. And they are also friends of faithful and true.

00:02:05:15 - 00:02:15:03

Greg Miller

They have found us helpful in their own support early in their journey. And so we are very glad that you are here. Charity and Clinton, thanks for being with us today.

00:02:15:05 - 00:02:22:11

Clinton Munoz

Thank you for having us. We love faithful and true. We love Debbie and we've just eaten up all of your resources.

00:02:22:14 - 00:02:33:11

Clinton Munoz

It was great that Charity got to meet you today, Greg, because she's heard our stories of from the men's workshop. I go met Greg, called out this and then Greg called out this and now she gets to put a face to the name, so it's great.

00:02:33:16 - 00:02:48:16

Greg Miller

Well, we are glad that you are here. And so I know that you are the founders of restored to more. And so just as we begin, let's talk a little bit about that ministry and how it got started in your interest in it and the working with couples.

00:02:48:18 - 00:03:09:01

Clinton Munoz

Yeah. So I feel like what happens so many times is unknowingly we there's chasm can be created in recovery when a couple doesn't know how to communicate effectively, when they don't know how to create safety or trust in the relationship. And it's almost like, what do I talk about? I'm at my therapy. I'm I'm growing. Charity is in her own programs for a betrayed spouse.

00:03:09:04 - 00:03:27:10

Clinton Munoz

And it just it just happens. Over time, we felt like we were growing apart versus growing closer together. And even though we wanted to experience restoration, we wanted to experience a renewed sense of trust and safety and connection. We just didn't know where to start. And as we interviewed more and more people, they didn't have the answers either.

00:03:27:11 - 00:03:46:24

Clinton Munoz

Greg. And so really Restored to more was founded with that whole purpose. Let's help couples understand the roadmap and kind of have this plan so that they can reengage with each other. They can learn practical tools and biblical tools with also a trauma informed lens as to how do we rebuild connection, how do we build safety and trust.

00:03:47:00 - 00:04:06:14

Clinton Munoz

And so we've created a lot of tools for that courses, material, even things like connect decks for kind of renewing the date night and a journal that they would do just kind of things would go, okay, here's here's some action steps we can take that would start to repair what's been damaged in a way that's appropriate for a couple that's gone through betrayal.

00:04:06:16 - 00:04:21:20

Greg Miller

Yeah. And charity for you. In the early days, if somebody had said, what do you need or what would be helpful for you, did you have any sense or clarity of what might have been helpful? Or were you just aware that you did have a need for something?

00:04:21:22 - 00:04:49:00

Clinton Munoz

I would say, yeah, there was definitely like a desire for understanding and a desire for wanting to learn and grow, but I really didn't know much. I mean, I was kind of like, what is this whole world? What am I getting into? I at first part of my story is I didn't even know that I needed healing. I think, you know, stigma around a lot of women is once he gets healed, then our marriage is healed.

00:04:49:00 - 00:05:12:03

Clinton Munoz

And soon realizing that that was not the case. And I had a lot of healing that I also needed to undergo and find freedom in. And so I think there was a lot of not really understanding anything, but knowing deep down like, oh man, like I know that there's something missing and lacking that I need. I just don't know what it is and I don't know how to get it right.

00:05:12:04 - 00:05:31:20

Greg Miller

And I would I would kind of normalize that for all of us. I know in the early days of my own recovery, I felt very clueless. I knew that I had needs, I was aware that things were missing. There were some voices that were trying to help me. God help guide me, but I was really clueless about what I was even needing or looking for.

00:05:32:01 - 00:05:50:06

Greg Miller

And so to have some direction, to have some support, to have some guidance, that's just a huge resource in the beginning. What we've kind of alluded to this, the fact that this is a part of your story. So whoever wants to start. What what did the early days of recovery and the betrayal look like for y'all?

00:05:50:08 - 00:05:53:21

Clinton Munoz

Oh man, I miss.

00:05:53:23 - 00:06:09:13

Clinton Munoz

You. Say I, I say I miss at the same thought. Like I mean, like you said, Greg, it was that I didn't know what I needed. And in the beginning I was even scared to even say the word addiction. Like I thought, oh, come on, I can't be that far gone. No, I definitely was that far gone. And and I just.

00:06:09:14 - 00:06:29:11

Clinton Munoz

And then so there was that whole journey of discovering what I needed and discovering that, wow, this is related to early childhood wounds. And there was other things in my life that I'd never addressed. I was so grateful when I did the trauma Egg at Faithful and True without the weekend, and I realized, oh my goodness, like this started way before I before I had found pornography.

00:06:29:11 - 00:06:48:06

Clinton Munoz

This pornography was just the way that I was coping with all these other hurts that I've never addressed. Spiritual hurts, family hurts, family of origin things, fatherhood wounds, all these different things. And then and then come to find out, like, not only did I need healing, but then our marriage, like, what does she need? And and what does she need as a betrayed spouse?

00:06:48:06 - 00:07:05:21

Clinton Munoz

So just like talking about completely lost, why she said it was ugly and why it was messy is because there really wasn't a roadmap. It was kind of like we just kept struggling and moving forward and taking two steps forward and one step back, and then maybe one step forward, maybe five steps back. I don't know, you're all kind of all over the place for a little while.

00:07:05:23 - 00:07:07:12

Clinton Munoz

Yeah.

00:07:07:14 - 00:07:35:08

Greg Miller

Well, and I would say kind of the images, it's two drowning people who many times are too closely attached. And so if one person is going under, the other person is going under and vice versa. Yeah. And what is true is sometimes the first stage in couples recovery is that healthy detachment. You know, one of the principles I believe and talk about is we cannot be attached in a healthy way, and we don't know what it is to have a healthy detachment.

00:07:35:14 - 00:07:51:03

Greg Miller

And so one of the first skills we have to learn is to get free from some of that in measurement so that each person, the husband and the wife can begin to get clear about what they need, what would be helpful, you know, what resources would move them forward in their journey.

00:07:51:05 - 00:08:13:05

Clinton Munoz

I love that I feel like I needed that in the sense with Jesus. Like I had put my attachment more on Clinton than I did my Heavenly Father. And so the detachment was taking Clinton off the throne of my heart and putting Jesus on the throne of my heart so that my emotions, my regulation, wasn't based off of what Clinton was or wasn't doing anymore.

00:08:13:07 - 00:08:43:20

Clinton Munoz

It was more so, Lord, what are you saying? What are you calling me to? What are where are you in this right. And grounding on to his truth, his promises versus my husband's, which ultimately had no control over. And I had no really understanding of any of it at all either. So when the Lord really called me to, hey, don't worry about him, worry about me and you, that's when I really got my deepest healing, I believe.

00:08:43:22 - 00:09:04:01

Greg Miller

And what's true is, for most of us, depending upon the nature of our woundedness, one of the things that we begin to believe early is that another person will have the capacity to save us. Then, if the right person shows up, does the right things, and they can rescue us from whatever chaos we are in and they can heal whatever pain has not been healed.

00:09:04:05 - 00:09:35:02

Greg Miller

And so that's why the relationship becomes a priority, because we do believe, maybe in an unconscious way, that this relationship is going to save us, and that sometimes the pressure that a couple feels that they're desperately trying to rescue each other, even though they're both drowning. And so that separation piece and like you said, charity, the really focusing on beyond our spouse to Jesus as the one that has the capacity to heal us and bring transformation to us.

00:09:35:03 - 00:09:58:12

Greg Miller

And this is really very subtle. I think working with couples, it's one of the most difficult things we can identify because we are taught to prioritize our spouse, we are taught to prioritize our marriage. And there's a fine line between prioritizing versus idealized idolizing. And I think that that line sometimes is not easily seen.

00:09:58:14 - 00:10:19:17

Clinton Munoz

Yeah. Well, and then just to add to what you're saying, not only did you have all that you were going through, but I had these subtle expectations of what should happen in my marriage if I start to experience recovery. Right. And so those came out and those were really painful to go through, where once I have 30 days of sobriety, I expect her to just be excited for me and welcomed me back in with open arms.

00:10:19:17 - 00:10:35:00

Clinton Munoz

I'll never forget. I'll never forget going like 90 days of sobriety and I'm in my recovery group. My guys are going, man, Clinton, how are you going to celebrate 90 days? That's a big milestone. You've never done that before in your whole life. And I'm thinking, you know, I don't know. I'm going to think about that. And I get home and I go, charity.

00:10:35:02 - 00:10:58:18

Clinton Munoz

I talk to my guys and I think I'm going to buy a watch, you know, I'm going to buy it expensive watch to celebrate my sobriety. And she about throws a book at me and I'm sitting there going, wow. Why is my wife so mad at me? Like, look what I've done. And I'm just completely oblivious. Greg to her hurting, to her pain, to how she is going to interpret the words I'm saying right where she's like, yeah, what are you buying me?

00:10:58:18 - 00:11:03:13

Clinton Munoz

I've been faithful the whole time, you know what I mean? Right? Stuff, right? Well, it's true, rightfully so.

00:11:03:17 - 00:11:32:14

Greg Miller

Both of these things are significant that you celebrate the transformation and the work that you have been doing, and that is something that we're able to do in our community. And we are also present with our spouses. Grieves. Because the anniversary dates of disclosure or explosion are painful, and they are a point of transformation and redemption. And so both of those things can be true, and both of those things need to be acknowledged.

00:11:32:14 - 00:11:58:12

Greg Miller

But I think that's a great example of how many times couples in the early days don't know how to connect around this, because how they are approaching it, how they see it, how they are experiencing it is so very different. So at what point did you begin to realize, hey, we would like maybe to provide support for couples who are going through this work of transformation and recovery.

00:11:58:14 - 00:12:19:09

Clinton Munoz

We didn't realize at first how advantageous it was for me to start getting educated on betrayal trauma and what was happening to charity. It was almost like we just we really wanted to connect. I think our desire for a healthy marriage was so strong on both of us. Not, like you said, not idolizing it, but going, man, God, I think you've you're going to do something here.

00:12:19:12 - 00:12:35:14

Clinton Munoz

So how do you want to do it? And slowly integrating practices that we didn't even know we're going to be habits that we carry on even to this day, doing weekly check ins, kind of being curious about each one another's recovery journey and doing it in a way that, yeah, okay, it was messy, but it was helpful.

00:12:35:16 - 00:12:55:01

Clinton Munoz

And then realizing that over time, wow, we now had a relationship that most couples don't get to experience after betrayal. And that was when it became clear, like, I think couples need to know the the messy journey that we've been on, even though it's been messy. We should just start talking about one thing turns into another. We're like, oh, let's do a podcast, talk about that messy journey.

00:12:55:04 - 00:13:11:12

Clinton Munoz

And couples are reaching out by the boatload. It just was like, oh my goodness, the small things that we did. Couples were grabbing onto those tools. They were implementing them on a weekly basis. It was changing the direction of their relationship and it was giving hope. And so then we were like, okay, I think this is what we're supposed to be doing a lot of prayer.

00:13:11:12 - 00:13:21:00

Clinton Munoz

And then God really making it clear this is a calling that he had given us not just to heal our marriage, but so that we could be a light to other marriages out there and have hope, give them hope.

00:13:21:02 - 00:13:32:05

Greg Miller

And charity. If early in the day somebody had said to you, you're going to be a model of how to do couples recovery, what what would you have thought about that prompting?

00:13:32:07 - 00:13:37:14

Clinton Munoz

I probably wouldn't have believed them.

00:13:37:16 - 00:13:48:10

Clinton Munoz

I think I would have been like, we are a hot mess, you know, like there's no way that we're going to be one sharing our story, but to.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:49:07

Clinton Munoz

Having a.

00:13:49:09 - 00:14:13:06

Clinton Munoz

Ministry and, you know, like, there's no way I would have been, which I'm so grateful. The Lord is so kind and not sharing with us, like what our future looks like because he knows we'd be sober, whelmed. But I think, yeah, in that moment I was just so filled with the day to day overwhelming of emotions and the recovery journey that there was no way that I could see past that.

00:14:13:08 - 00:14:13:15

Clinton Munoz

Yeah.

00:14:13:15 - 00:14:42:08

Greg Miller

Well, and, you know, I think that's part of the gift. Kind of like what you said is this is a one day at a time, one moment at a time journey, and eventually we find ourselves in a new place if we take each step as it comes. And I know for Beth and I, you know, leading the couples workshop, we often say, if you had told us in the early days of our recovery that we would be doing this, we would absolutely not believe you, because in the early days we didn't believe that we would be together.

00:14:42:13 - 00:15:25:05

Greg Miller

And so there is a message of hope, especially for couples that don't see a way forward. Don't think that you know they're going to make it, that there are resources, there are opportunities, there are possibilities that make it possible for them to move forward. And, well, one of the things that we were talking about just prior to starting the recording was this idea of the importance of, in the early days, finding the way to self-regulate when you are together and what are some of the tools, some of the resources, because the reality is, and we see this, if a couple is struggling to regulate in having even a basic conversation, they're going to have difficulty

00:15:25:06 - 00:15:39:06

Greg Miller

moving forward until they get better at that skill. So, you know, charity, as you would be encouraging or coaching a wife on this idea of self regulation, what might be some of the direction you might provide for her?

00:15:39:08 - 00:15:57:09

Clinton Munoz

Yeah, I think, you know, we had many moments in our recovery where he would come home and in recovery we had two littles and I mean, they were little littles infants and actually three. Sorry.

00:15:57:11 - 00:15:58:03

Clinton Munoz

Right? Yeah, we had three.

00:15:58:03 - 00:16:18:16

Clinton Munoz

Under three. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was nutty. So I feel like there was so much that I was like trying to just get day to day stuff done. And Clinton would come home from a therapy appointment and just want to, like, start connecting and talking about this heavy thing while I have a baby crying and I'm barely trying to survive myself.

00:16:18:16 - 00:16:40:06

Clinton Munoz

And all of a sudden realizing like, oh man, like I want to connect with you, but can't you just see, like right now is not the time. And so something that I try and help couples and wives understand is, hey, there's a time and a place for you guys to connect. And I think it's really important that you put that on the calendar weekly for you guys to connect.

00:16:40:06 - 00:16:57:07

Clinton Munoz

And if there's something in the moment that you're really feeling like you want to talk to your spouse about, I love journaling. Like I'm the biggest component for journaling. And I'll tell them, like, it doesn't have to be like, go get a journal and write down your pen. You know, for me, my journal was my notes app on my phone.

00:16:57:07 - 00:17:18:03

Clinton Munoz

And so in that moment, I would I mean, my notepad is basically like a recovery book. And I mean, there are verses on there that for when I was feeling triggered that I would run to just to remind myself of truth. There is notes on there. When I was really angry and being like, I can't believe he responded like this, and we need to talk about this.

00:17:18:03 - 00:17:40:17

Clinton Munoz

And so my biggest recommendation is to realize that, yes, you may be feeling really big emotions, but the biggest person you should share that with first is God. Maybe a safe friend if you have one, maybe a therapist, and then after you've flushed it out a couple of times, analyze. Is it really a big deal? Is it really something that I need to talk to my spouse about?

00:17:40:18 - 00:17:55:11

Clinton Munoz

And most of the time, it's really not because you've kind of gotten it. You've processed it with other people, or maybe it is. And so then then you can say, hey, I need to talk to you about something. Can when's the best time this week for us to, you know, have a time for us to talk about something.

00:17:55:13 - 00:18:19:09

Clinton Munoz

And so I think for me, I really think the best advice is to process on your own first. And by a simple tool, you know, your notepad on your phone and talking to Jesus about it, then talking about it with a friend, and then if it's really that important to then be able to process with your spouse. And maybe it's an opportunity to build intimacy, maybe it's an opportunity to connect.

00:18:19:11 - 00:18:42:16

Clinton Munoz

But those were like some of the biggest things that I think are so important because in the heat of the moment, you get so riled up and get so emotional and then you end up saying things, maybe that hurt. He's really emotional. So then he'll say something. And so I think that there's a proper time and space to have important conversations with big emotions, but just having them filtered and regulating yourself first before going into that conversation.

00:18:42:21 - 00:19:00:20

Greg Miller

Yeah. And you know, a simple tool using the example of Clinton coming home and wanting to share something instead of just starting to ask, hey, is this a good time? I just want to check in around something that came up in my therapy, and you have every opportunity to say, no, this isn't a good time, but what if we try it?

00:19:00:20 - 00:19:23:04

Greg Miller

At this point, it's it's really learning some basic kindness, generosity, openness to really before I bulldoze with whatever I have, even if it's good. You know, sometimes when we come home and we have something amazing that we want to share, but the reality is that the other person isn't in a place to be able to hear it, it's not going to be helpful, and so on both ways.

00:19:23:04 - 00:19:47:09

Greg Miller

Just say, hey, is this a good time to share? And I you know, one of the things I think men struggle with is read the room. You know, if you're walking in and there's a lot of chaos and, you know, the kid is crying and someone's trying to get a meal together, read the room. This may not be the best time to try to have an in-depth conversation with your spouse, even if it is a positive conversation, even if it's something good that you want to share.

00:19:47:11 - 00:20:05:23

Clinton Munoz

Yeah, it's so true, Greg and I think so many times, again, it comes back to the couples, I just. I love your imagery of two couples drowning. If charities drowning and she's triggered, it's natural to like, reach to the other person and try to like use them as leverage to hoist up and get a breath. But that's not going to result in anything good.

00:20:05:23 - 00:20:22:03

Clinton Munoz

Where now I'm feeling like I'm drowning. I'm probably going to grab her and throw her underneath and try to get a breath myself. And I think that's really what couples do. They think, oh, I'm dysregulated, I'm triggered. Why don't I go to the other person and have them help me? Because they're my partner. They're my help me. Let me go do that.

00:20:22:04 - 00:20:38:08

Clinton Munoz

And I think I see this all the time with guys to their wives and with wives to their husbands, where they're like, oh, I'm going to try to rely on the other person and realizing that, man, it is our responsibility to regulate. It's our own individual responsibility to regulate. Like you said earlier, our safety is up to us.

00:20:38:10 - 00:20:59:11

Clinton Munoz

And so understanding those things, identifying the trigger, being able to name what we're feeling and in our bodies and also in our emotions, being able to recognize the beliefs that God stirred up. Because maybe that belief that isn't even rooted in truth, but it's so real in the moment that I'm operating as if it were true, and then asking, what do I need right now to stay safe?

00:20:59:12 - 00:21:19:02

Clinton Munoz

Like, what do I need to stay safe right now versus reacting to this trigger or to this stimulus? And sometimes that's not going to my wife and being like, hey, can you help me right now? I don't think that's most of them. That's not the best course of action. In fact, it will build more trust and more connection in our relationship.

00:21:19:04 - 00:21:37:21

Clinton Munoz

When she knows that I was triggered earlier today. And here's how I handled it. Here's what I did. Here's how I processed it, here's who I called, here's what I understood about it, and here's who I reached out to. That was somebody safe. Here is the truth that I found myself grounded in. And here's how I got out of that triggered space.

00:21:38:00 - 00:21:57:14

Clinton Munoz

I'll never forget her feeling like I. I mean, I might as well put on. I might as well have, like, ripped open my shirt and had the Superman emblem beneath it. Like, wait, what? You can process your own triggers. Like, because most of my life, right. Those big emotions, they controlled me. I, I'm an emotional person. So I'd be I would have high highs and lows, lows.

00:21:57:16 - 00:22:19:11

Clinton Munoz

And so for her to understand that I had a toolkit on how to regulate by myself without her. That was when she started to know, like, wow, there's really growth happening in Clinton's heart. This is way beyond his addiction and his behaviors and acting out sexually. He's maturing. He's becoming somebody that I can trust. And I think that is what we see most couples experience.

00:22:19:11 - 00:22:20:11

Clinton Munoz

And it's phenomenal.

00:22:20:15 - 00:22:48:14

Greg Miller

Yeah. Well, going back to the image of two people drowning, typically when two people are drowning, the the help is not going to come from someone in the water. It's going to come from somebody on the shore that has the resources that can bring those resources to the person. And I think one of the temptations is as a couple, we're clinging to each other, kind of like what you've said, and it's almost a distraction to the reality that we need an intervention, we need other voices.

00:22:48:14 - 00:23:14:12

Greg Miller

We need other support to come and help be with us so that independently, we can learn to swim so that later we can learn to swim together. And I think for a lot of couples in the early days, the belief is that my spouse is going to be able to do something that will rescue me. And, you know, the counseling center that I went to, one of the big emphasis was that when we are triggered, yes, something else triggers us.

00:23:14:12 - 00:23:37:24

Greg Miller

But the most important lesson is what is triggered in me. You know, what can I learn about myself? What? What is getting activated in me? But in the early moments of the trigger, it's easy to focus on what triggered me. And I can focus on my spouse and what he or she did and how that activated me. But the reality is, if I slow down, take a moment, learn something about myself.

00:23:38:01 - 00:24:02:10

Greg Miller

What is this about me? Then later I can bring that to my spouse. Ivan, say a good trigger conversation is one that when it's over, the person knows less about the trigger and they know more about you. And many times we want it to be the opposite. We want to focus on what triggered us, especially if our spouse did something and we perceive it as wrong or bad, versus, hey, what's this about for me?

00:24:02:12 - 00:24:04:13

Charity Munoz

Yeah, yeah. So true.

00:24:04:15 - 00:24:06:09

Clinton Munoz

So good. That's a great point.

00:24:06:12 - 00:24:07:04

Charity Munoz

Yeah.

00:24:07:06 - 00:24:17:09

Greg Miller

So one of the things we know is that you do provide opportunities for couples to be in community with each other. So how did that evolve over time?

00:24:17:11 - 00:24:18:20

Charity Munoz

00:24:18:22 - 00:24:47:01

Clinton Munoz

Well, we, did like a 12 week workshop, and we just posted online and a bunch of couples were there and we were like, oh, wow, this is awesome. Like, this is so we started seeing, yeah, incredible fruit from it. And I mean, I'm we're talking spouses knowing that they're not alone. I mean, the biggest lie the enemy I believe in the beginning of recovery that he says over couples is you're alone.

00:24:47:01 - 00:25:12:19

Clinton Munoz

Nobody gets you. Nobody understands you. Everyone's going to judge you. You don't need to tell anyone you're going to get a divorce. I mean, there's so many things, right? You just feel so isolated, so alone, and so in these groups, what we saw for the first time was hope. Like, oh my gosh, you get me? Because I think that there's something in recovery in the beginning where I know I specifically felt like if you haven't been through betrayal, you don't get me.

00:25:12:21 - 00:25:29:02

Clinton Munoz

I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to hear about your struggle. Like you don't understand my marriage. You don't understand what I'm feeling. You don't understand what I'm going. I'm experiencing PTSD. My hair is falling out. I have had nerve. I am triggered all the time. Like I'm a hot mess. You don't understand. I'm sorry that your dog just died.

00:25:29:02 - 00:25:58:02

Clinton Munoz

And that's really painful. And we're on two different levels, okay? And so that's where I was at emotionally in the beginning of our recovery. And so I needed to be around someone who just understood what I was going through. And so having couples in a room where they're like, oh my gosh, you get me that. Immediately one gave them hope to give them a sense of safety, and it just built this commodity around these couples where they're like, we can do this together.

00:25:58:04 - 00:26:09:10

Clinton Munoz

And I think one of the most beautiful things, too, that you always talk about, which I'd love for you to share, is what a guy sees in a group setting with other couples, versus when he hears it from his wife.

00:26:09:12 - 00:26:09:24

Charity Munoz

Yeah.

00:26:10:01 - 00:26:10:10

Clinton Munoz

Well, yeah.

00:26:10:11 - 00:26:11:13

Charity Munoz

Just to.

00:26:11:15 - 00:26:31:21

Clinton Munoz

Do what you were saying. It's so true what we found to be one of the most effective things in a group setting with other couples was when Charity would tell me about what she was experiencing with betrayal, trauma, or emotions that were really big, that were full of pain. It just triggered the shame, right, Greg? It just triggered.

00:26:31:23 - 00:26:54:15

Clinton Munoz

And then the defensiveness. I had to fight being defensive, I had to just work to listen. It was so hard to have empathy because I'm the one that created that pain. I did that, I caused that, and so even as hard as I'm trying to listen with me, it was really tough. And what we saw right away was that couples responded differently to somebody of the opposite sex sharing in a group setting.

00:26:54:18 - 00:27:11:09

Clinton Munoz

And so once I heard another wife share what she was experiencing, I just my heart broke. I was like, oh my gosh. Are you serious? And then I would look at charity and go, man, are you feeling those same things? And she goes, yeah, that's what I've been telling you, you idiot, for the past six months, you know?

00:27:11:10 - 00:27:12:21

Clinton Munoz

But but confidence.

00:27:12:21 - 00:27:14:05

Greg Miller

You didn't say, you idiot.

00:27:14:07 - 00:27:15:09

Charity Munoz

I get.

00:27:15:11 - 00:27:16:07

Greg Miller

To get the point.

00:27:16:08 - 00:27:32:02

Clinton Munoz

But I couldn't hear it right. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And my heart would just break and and all of a sudden I could now go, oh my goodness. And I could hear it differently and I could perceive it differently. I could feel it differently. In fact, empathy just started to become a natural outcome.

00:27:32:08 - 00:27:48:12

Clinton Munoz

And we saw this happening with all these couples, even the even the wives, even the betrayed spouses. Of course, when a husband starts sharing about like, well, hey, this happened before you were a part of my part of my story, and that's really what you want betrayed spouse to know. One of the keys is knowing that this was this wasn't about you.

00:27:48:12 - 00:28:10:01

Clinton Munoz

You didn't cause this. You didn't create this habit in me, you know? Of course you know. And so but it's really hard to hear that, I think, as a betrayed spouse. And so but when another man starts sharing about how he was abused when he was young, and this took place and entered his life at the age of nine or 10 or 11, and it became his coping mechanism.

00:28:10:01 - 00:28:26:17

Clinton Munoz

And then these 4 or 5 guys all share similar stories. The betrayed spouse looks at her husband differently, and instead of her just reading it from a book saying, hey, this wasn't about you. You know, this happened probably before you were a part of his life. She can now put those pieces together and go, wow, I can really see that.

00:28:26:17 - 00:28:44:01

Clinton Munoz

I wasn't the root of this struggle. You didn't start acting out because of me not giving you enough sex, that sex was never the problem here. You were broken, and sex was a drug that you were using to cope with that brokenness. And so we just started to see that a lot. It was it was amazing.

00:28:44:04 - 00:29:04:12

Greg Miller

Now, one of the things you're identifying that we see regularly is that couples come into our workshops just with what we call couples, and the way that we heal couples shame is we let ourselves be seen. You know, we often say shame does not want to be spoken out loud. Shame doesn't want to be named. Shame doesn't want to be seen.

00:29:04:18 - 00:29:30:14

Greg Miller

But when we enter into a community with other couples and we see them and they see us, that's where shame can be healed. And I once heard someone say, our shame is created in community and our shame must be healed in community also. And I think that that's why you're speaking to, well, as we conclude, just if someone is interested in the resources that you have and in your particular ministry, how can they get Ahold of you?

00:29:30:15 - 00:29:32:05

Greg Miller

What is the best way to do that?

00:29:32:09 - 00:29:49:10

Clinton Munoz

Yeah. So everything is under the name restored with the number two more. So we have our website. We have our YouTube channel. We have Instagram podcast on iTunes and Spotify. So type in restored to more and you'll get whatever you want.

00:29:49:12 - 00:30:11:16

Greg Miller

Well that is great. Well and again thank you for being with us. Thanks for being a friend of Faithful and True. And for anyone who is listening that they're looking for an opportunity to connect as a couple with other couples, look towards restored for more. Two more, restored two more, and let them have the resources that you need.

00:30:11:18 - 00:30:16:08

Greg Miller

So again, thanks for being with the Faithful and True podcast and we'll look forward to connecting later.

00:30:16:10 - 00:30:40:07

Clinton Munoz

And Greg, we just can't affirm all that you guys are doing. I mean, we just want the listeners that are already faithful listeners to what Faithful and True does, to know that we are just so appreciative in our own personal journey and story to all that you guys offer. Whether it's the men's weekends, the women's weekends. We also have had a lot of people come to our ministry and we refer them to yours, and they have seen tremendous fruit internally and relationally because of what you guys are doing.

00:30:40:07 - 00:30:45:19

Clinton Munoz

So thank you so much, and I hope people continue to plug into all that God is prompting you guys to keep creating.

00:30:45:21 - 00:30:53:17

Greg Miller

Well, thank you. And for those of you that are interested, you can reach out to Faithful and true.com. And again, thanks for being with us on this podcast.

00:30:53:19 - 00:30:54:13

Charity Munoz

Thanks.

00:30:54:15 - 00:31:19:20

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. I'm sure that you have enjoyed the conversation that Doctor Greg Miller had with Clinton and Charity Munoz from Restored to More. We hope that you will visit our website, faithful and true.com, for more information and more resources that will be helpful to you in your healing journey.

00:31:19:22 - 00:31:26:20

Randy Evert

In the meantime, we hope this coming week will be a week for you that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.