Check It Out

Debbie Laaser

And then our core beliefs are what start creating. All of our emotions are difficult emotions that then we might want to cope or Medicaid in some way. And it leads us off on that trail of not living with much joy or peace in our life. So you start to see how important it is. The more we're checking it out.

Debbie Laaser

We're not living with stories in our head, the less we have to create negative emotions for ourselves or difficult emotions, and therefore the less coping we need.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randy Everett, your co-host, and we are here today with our usual host, doctor Greg Miller. Greg, great to see you.

Greg Miller

It's good to be here.

Randy Evert

Good to have your smiling face on board. And our special guest today is the co-founder and director of Faithful and True Debbie Laser. Debbie, thanks for joining us today. Debbie is here to, jumpstart the conversation. Regarding perceptions, right.

Greg Miller

And so for those of you that are familiar with Faithful and True, and you've heard us talk about the iceberg, part of that is understanding that meanings messages, core beliefs, perceptions level. And so, Deb, why don't you just tell us a little bit about the iceberg for those of people that might not be familiar with it?

Debbie Laaser

Yeah, I was thinking about that kind of wishing we had a chart, which we could do for YouTube. But for those of you who are listening, I'll try to explain it to you. And iceberg, as we see it out in the water, has a small part of it that pokes up through the water. Excuse me. And that part is what we would consider our behaviors that we can see.

Debbie Laaser

We can watch people and what they're doing, or we can hear what they're saying. But underneath the water is a whole large portion of an iceberg. And this is where a therapist we so admire, Virginia Satire, talked about those layers underneath the water. If we look at them in terms of who we are as a person, say a lot about vulnerabilities, about us.

Debbie Laaser

So underneath there we can be talking about the feelings we have about something we've just seen or heard. We could be coping in some way because it disturbs our peace, as I always say. Right. There could be meanings or messages or perceptions we have about what we're seeing, and then there can be needs that we have under there all kinds of stuff.

Debbie Laaser

And we talk about the seven desires. And then at the very bottom of the iceberg we talk about what's really true. The layer of the iceberg that we really wanted to focus on today is that layer where we create beliefs or assumptions or interpretations. There are a lot of words that we could use. And the truth is we're all doing that all the time.

Debbie Laaser

Right. If you really stop and just, talk about what you are perceiving as you're looking at things, you'll notice that you're creating a story in your head. That's another way we like to talk about it here. And that story in your head often is not true, which is where the problem becomes. Right.

Greg Miller

And I think part of the idea is in relationship. Most of the time, if we're not intentional, we stay focused on the behaviors. And then what happens is our reactions and our emotions come from how we perceive this. I think of this idea that, I often heard that I witness report is one of the most unreliable thing because we see things differently.

Greg Miller

We may all be watching the same accident, or we may all be watching the same experience, but our where we're standing and how we're experiencing it can shape the way that we're perceiving it. And I think that that's what's true here is that we may all be watching the same thing, but how we perceive it, the filters that we have can be different.

Greg Miller

And, you know, one of the things that's true is our perceptions of people's behaviors are shaped and formed by our own experiences and our own history. And so, as you know, my spouse does something I may start to associate meanings with that I may have these perceptions that come from that. That's going to trigger some core beliefs in me.

Greg Miller

And part of the danger is if I begin to let that be my truth and assume that that is the truth, then it's going to derail the conversation or the interaction that I'm having with my partner.

Debbie Laaser

And especially the relationship and the intimacy as we talk about the emotional intimacy of a relationship is going to be affected also because we're not really being known at that point. We're starting to react based on our story in our head. Let's give some just some easy examples. Like I was on my way to work. You know, it's not very far, and I like to be in the left lane because I have to turn left, you know, to get to Faithful and True.

Debbie Laaser

And obviously, there was someone who was not. Obviously, there was someone tailgating me. I say obviously because it does happen a fair amount and they're tailgating me. And I'm, you know, my reaction to that, I see what's happening in my rear view mirror and my reaction is kind of frustration. Like, come on, I'm going to turn in another couple miles.

Debbie Laaser

You could have some patience and, the perception that will come pretty quickly if I don't catch myself is you are just in a rush all the time, and you need to learn how to be patient. But then there's another core belief that starts coming up for me is, I know I'm a little old lady and I don't drive as fast as a lot of people like, and probably I could move over.

Debbie Laaser

So lots of things happening in my head. Unfortunately, I can't talk to the driver. Right. But already a lot of stories going on in my head. Yeah, absolutely.

Greg Miller

And we have those experiences where, you know, we talk about there being a filter and we interpret whatever it is that's going on through this filter. And our filter is shaped informed by our experiences. And so in a relationship I know that, you know, one of the patterns that can be for me is let's say I come home and Beth is quiet and I make assumptions about that, that my what may be true is Beth is being quiet, but immediately I go to an old core belief of I must have done something wrong.

Greg Miller

Or the reason she's quiet is that she's mad at me and I'm off to the races, and now I'm reacting and I'm becoming defensive. And there's not even been an acknowledgment of what's going on for Beth or if Beth is mad at me. But I'm reacting based upon my perception. And I think part of what is true is this happened so quickly, we're not even aware that that filter exists, and it takes some intentionality to come back and say, hey, I want to check something out with you.

Greg Miller

So in the case that you shared, like you said, you couldn't have a conversation with the other driver to kind of see what's going on for them. But what's good is in our relationships, we can check that out. We can ask what's going on for the other person.

Debbie Laaser

So I think that's what I wanted to call this podcast is check it out.

Greg Miller

Yeah, right. There you go.

Debbie Laaser

So there you go. Daniel, you've got the title. But I think what we can learn to do is to check things out, and it's such an easy thing to do, and it gives us the truth about the situation as the other person is witnessing it or behaving in that situation. And then we can live in so much more peace.

Debbie Laaser

And so I'll give you an example of someone I was working with the other day who was having a conversation with her spouse, and he happened to mention that he he would like to move on a bit faster than they are in this recovery from betrayal and so forth, and he wants to move forward with intimacy. And so, she didn't really know what he meant by that.

Debbie Laaser

But people often use that word to mean sex, although that's not the meaning we make of it here, generally speaking. And so it just led to her freezing, really, because she knew she wasn't ready for that. And so rather than talk at all, she just froze and shut down and left, left him there. Right. So I asked her if she would be willing to check it out.

Debbie Laaser

You know, this perception that she had. And she said, well, what do you mean by that? And I said, well, your conversation obviously didn't end very well because you didn't say anything when that left him probably creating a story in his head about your silence. And so if you want to live in truth about this, maybe you could go back, have a do over which we talk about here sometimes and talk about what happened when he brought that up.

Debbie Laaser

And you did this and could could she check out what he meant by this word? And so she did. And he told her what he meant by that word. And so now she knew clearly what he meant. And it was a combination of a lot of things wanting to be with her, wanting to spend time together. It did include sex in his mind.

Debbie Laaser

So now she knew that as well. But again, she was living in truth so that it could help her build on what her next decision would be. Gave them the chance to have a conversation. Right. So it's not that hard to check something out, and you can even use those words. I'm giving you the title here so you can use the words.

Debbie Laaser

Could I check out something with you?

Greg Miller

One of the things that you mentioned, and I think it's so true in relationships is we have reactions to somebody reaction. Right. And so that's where we kind of, you know, get caught up in some of the chaos is if somebody's not slowing it down to check out some of those perception. Because in the example that, you gave, just like she could have checked something out, then the husband has the opportunity to check something out too.

Greg Miller

So he could have said, I noticed that you've gotten quiet. Can I just check something out? Are you angry that I brought this up? Or, you know, are you sad? That's kind of what I'm believing. Is that you're angry or sad that I brought this up. And so at any point in the couple, we can slow down that progression and we can be the ones that say, hey, I just want to check something out.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah. And you know what? We find, the sooner someone checks it out, the sooner the whole relationship will change. So it could be either one, which is lovely because someone might not remember to do that or. But whoever's triggered can check it out, and and it leads to a conversation that no doubt will be a lot healthier than what it was.

Greg Miller

Right?

Greg Miller

You know, we talk on this level that we have these perceptions and meanings, and one of them also is core beliefs. And a core belief is a belief that so central to who we are. It shapes and forms the decisions that we make. An example from my own story is when I was in the third grade, we moved from Oklahoma to Texas and it was a really difficult move.

Greg Miller

I didn't feel like I belonged, I didn't feel like I was included and I wasn't included. You know, I was aware that, you know, when the the teams were chosen, I wasn't chosen. When kids were playing on the playground, I wasn't included. I became aware of the fact that after school, kids were going to people's houses together, or there was a birthday party I wasn't invited to.

Greg Miller

So what am I? Corps beliefs became? I'm not included. And so years later, I'm in recovery and something's going on for me. I'm doing what they tell me to do. I'm reaching out to my community. So I'm reaching out, checking something out, wanting to know, you know, wanting to share. And then I don't hear anything back from anybody.

Greg Miller

And what happens is immediately that old core belief gets triggered of, see, this proves I'm not included. And I start running with that, and I get mad at the guys and I get hurt and I don't. I go, well, I'm not going to be in, you know, all this stuff that probably isn't healthy. And then eventually somebody reaches out because there was another option that I hadn't considered, and that was maybe one guy was busy or another guy was in a meeting, or another guy was driving, or one guy's phone had died.

Greg Miller

But instead of considering those other options, I immediately went to, well, see, this proves I'm not included. And I think that's part of the power of this meanings perceptions core beliefs level is when we begin to believe it's the truth and we start operating out of that. That creates a lot of chaos in our relationships.

Debbie Laaser

And then our core beliefs are what start creating. All of our emotions are difficult emotions that then we might want to cope or medicate in some way. And it leaves us off on that trail of not living with much joy or peace in our life. So you start to see how important it is. The more we're checking it out.

Debbie Laaser

We're not living with stories in our head, the less we have to create negative emotions for ourselves or difficult emotions, and therefore the less coping we need. You know, another thing I would say is there are sometimes situations like mine with a car and having someone tailgating me where we can't check it out. And one of the things I have named in my work with women is to think about being a possibility.

Debbie Laaser

Korean possibility is somebody who will at least try to think about what other possibilities this person is up to when they've done what they've done. And so I often end up going there just so that I end up on a, on a kind of a happy place, I would say, or just kind of a smiling place for myself.

Debbie Laaser

I think about he must have his wife in the car and she's delivering a baby, and they need to get to the hospital soon, or he's been late for work three times, and if he doesn't get there today, he's going to get fired, you know? So I go through my head and I think about all these possibilities, and before I know it, I'm where I need to go.

Debbie Laaser

And he's gone and I don't think about it anymore. Whereas if I stuck with the other one, I, I'm just not a good driver and I'm old and people don't think I can drive. I would probably take that belief about myself into my day and let it just kind of ruin things for hours or the whole day. In fact.

Greg Miller

I think kind of what you're talking about is giving other people the benefit of the doubt. So it's so easy to go to the negative about them. And I think it's great to be able to consider some positive things that may be going on for them, or some other urgent things that are happening, and also to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt, instead of immediately going to this negative messaging about myself to be able to name what is true and what is true is I am a good driver.

Greg Miller

What is true is I am cautious, and what is true is I do need to turn left. And I know exactly where you're talking, and you don't want to be caught in the other lane because people are flying past, and getting into the lane that you need can be challenging. So maybe to say, actually, this is really strategic for me to be in this lane, but it is important when we're starting to hear those negative messages about others and ourselves, that we go to possibilities and give people the benefit of the doubt.

Greg Miller

Yeah. You know, one thing I would say is, and this isn't being Pollyanna, this isn't denying what is true. It's simply opening yourself to some other options that could possibly be true.

Debbie Laaser

Yes, yes. And I just want, you know, our audience to hear this is such a simple thing you can work on. And I know as you do it regularly, it will change your days. It will, you know, you will have more joy in your days when you start to think about what is really true. One of the things I would bring up is Jim Farmer, who I know is just on our podcast.

Debbie Laaser

Our clinical director heard some some research about this perceptions and core beliefs area of the iceberg that actually it's probably at least 68% of our perceptions about life as we're seeing it is not correct. It's not truthful. So when you think about it, at least almost three quarters of our thoughts going through our head need some adjustment to be the truth.

Debbie Laaser

And that's a huge amount to think about. We're going around if we don't talk to others, and all we do is live with our own thoughts, we're going to be derailed a lot of the time, right?

Greg Miller

So, you know, one of the things I would say is for couples that are really in a difficult place and they're really struggling to have any conversations. What could be true is this is the kind of conversation that you have with your couples therapist that if an instance happens and you're really activated and triggered and you don't feel like it's safe or possible to have the conversation, then one thing I would encourage is even to yourself, maybe consider the possibility that you know your interpretation of what just happened isn't accurate.

Greg Miller

So you're not holding this grudge or this hurt towards your your spouse. But then when you are in a safer place, when you are in that office with the therapist, this is where you're able to bring it out and say, hey, I want to go back to an experience that we had, and I just want to check it out, because sometimes even what may be seen as the simplest conversation in the early days can be really difficult to have.

Greg Miller

And this is important enough that you want the support that you need so that it can go well.

Greg Miller

Debbie Laaser

And I think, you know, with our couples that we work with, I think things as simple as who's going to initiate, for instance, sets a check in that we create for our couples, or who's going to initiate calling to make our couples appointment. And maybe we assume that the other person should be doing that because whatever they created, the harm or hurt or whatever.

Debbie Laaser

But again, the story in our head is if you really knew how much I was hurting, he would initiate this. But we're not talking about it, you know? So we're assuming that they can read our mind and know what the story is in our head. And we're not mind readers, right after all. And so, again, if we would just share the story in our head or the need that we have, it would mean a lot to me if you would initiate that.

Debbie Laaser

It speaks to me about your desire to move forward or to, you know, advocate for us. And counseling. It would be so much easier than living with the story in our head.

Greg Miller

Well, and in that particular case, it's it's interesting how we can have very different perceptions. You know, the husband may be thinking, there's no way I can initiate a phone call with the counselor, because that's presumptuous. And maybe she doesn't want me to do that. And it's those conversations that bring clarity that can also bring safety. Because now we do understand what's going on for the other person.

Greg Miller

I think one of the the big perceptions that create chaos is this idea of if only you, you know, would do this, it would mean that you love me. If you loved me, then you would fill in the blank. And we have a lot of those. Many of them are very unconscious, and we don't feel that sense of rejection until it's not being done.

Greg Miller

And so this could be one of them if if you love me, you would call the couple's counselor. But instead of saying that out loud, an expression of love would be calling the couples counselor, then I just feel hurt and resentful that you don't know that already. And what's also true is it becomes complicated when we feel like we have shared this with our spouse before, and it doesn't seem like any difference is being made.

Greg Miller

Debbie Laaser

Yeah. And that's that's an interesting point Greg, because sharing our perceptions, the stories in our head or the meanings we're making of something doesn't necessarily mean that we will land on the same truth. And then we'll have to decide what we will do when we have differences of perceptions. I know Mark and I used to have a fair amount of conversations about what was it good to help kids with money and when was it too much?

Debbie Laaser

And we had different perceptions because of how we we handled money in each of our own families. And so thankfully, we got to a place where we could at least talk about it instead of fighting about, you do this too much of this, you don't do enough of that. That's where it started. And till we got better at this kind of thing, saying, well, in my perception, I think it would be nice to be able to help them out with this.

Debbie Laaser

And so, I'm just saying that having different perceptions, even though we've learned different things, doesn't necessarily mean we'll land at the same truth. Oftentimes, it can lean to a pretty close connection that way, I think. But if it didn't, then we would have to decide how we will parent differently in the case of, say, finances.

Greg Miller

Right.

Greg Miller

And how can we come up with an agreement? You know, what's interesting is you said this idea of how much of our and it's the idea that how much of our history and our story shapes our perceptions. And one of the best things that we can do is when we're in a conversation with our spouse and we're not agreeing, the more that we can share how we came to that perception, or why we believe the thing that we believe and what our history is around this area, then the more our spouse can understand us, they still may not agree with us.

Greg Miller

They still may see it differently, but at least they can now have a sense of. Oh, okay. Given your story, your history, your experience, it makes sense that you would want to do it this way. Yeah. What's also true is it helps us to understand the motive of the other person. You know, there may be this assumption that you just want to spoil the kids, or you don't want the kids to take responsibility, or and we can clarify those.

Greg Miller

And sometimes our assumptions about somebody motive is one of the more hurtful aspects of our relationship. We we can see the behavior, but if we start assuming why they are doing the behavior, then that's a place that it's important that we check.

Greg Miller

It out.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah. And back to our scenario with finances and the kids. You know, it's true. When we finally began to learn how to talk about our histories, it did help us understand. I came of a family with a business father. You know, they did a lot to watch finances. You were very responsible person. If you earned your way here.

Debbie Laaser

Whatever. Mark came up from a ministerial family, and you know God provides. And let's not worry about it too much. And we just give, give. And, you know, so we were very different in terms of how we handled money. And you're right, I think my assumption the story in my head was building, well, you get to just be the fun dad because you're handing out 20s.

Debbie Laaser

And I'm saying, well, if you want to wash the car or if you want to go do this to earn your money, right. Not not nearly as much fun. It was very different. So you're right that, you know, attacking someone's motivation and assuming we know why they're doing something can be so hurtful.

Greg Miller

Right?

Greg Miller

And what's interesting is, you know, in that approach, there's so much and this because there's times when generosity and grace are appropriate. And what's also true is we are given what we earn. And so sometimes we get into this belief of, I'm right, you're wrong. And as soon as a couple gets into that debating who's right, who's wrong, they're really going to struggle coming towards the truth and to be able to live in the and this of both of our approaches have merit.

Greg Miller

Both of our approaches have value. And one approach on his own isn't helpful. And so then we start appreciating the differences. And then we can start talking about okay. In this particular case how do we want to approach this. You know, this idea that opposite attracts is very true. And if we just stay in our opposite and oppositional places, it's going to result in conflict.

Greg Miller

But if we can actually see the value of our spouses perspective and kind of move towards the middle, that's where we're going to find connection and intimacy.

Greg Miller

Yeah.

Debbie Laaser

Now we say using my hands for those of you who aren't seeing us, but we are often opposites in terms of being on opposite ends of a continuum, in terms of how we do something or think about something. In our case, our finances were on opposite ends as we began to share our stories in our histories. It did help us move to what I perceive as a the healthier middle ground where it's true, we we we stop being so anal, may I say about money?

Debbie Laaser

And we started also trusting God more in our decisions and how we move forward in our giving. And it was some of both. Right. And so actually after recovery, we lived so much more in peace about how we handled money together. And it was something new altogether. Then either one of us brought to the relationship.

Greg Miller

Well, and again, this idea of if if the perception are a filter that we're not even aware of, the first step is acknowledging the filter exists. And so even in the early days, for someone to be able to say, this is what I'm believing, and it may not be true, or this is how I'm experiencing this. And then if I can just say that to me, say that to myself internally, maybe you don't feel like I can have that conversation and start with, I want to check something out.

Greg Miller

But if I can at least acknowledge I'm seeing it this way and I may not be seeing it clearly, that then can lead to me being able to eventually say, hey, can I check something out.

Greg Miller

With you? Yeah, yeah.

Debbie Laaser

That ownership piece we always talk about is such a huge gift to give another person. I may not be right about this, I'm not sure, but I just want to check it out. And so ownership, along with sharing what's really going on with the story in your head, looking at your history, all those things are going to make a relationship so much healthier.

Randy Evert

Well done. There you go. The, we hope that you have enjoyed today's podcast. It's such a great subject and so deep as you both contributed to it. Debbie, thank you for joining us today. It's great to have you back on the podcast again. And, Greg, as always, your leadership is admirable. We'd like to invite our viewers and our listeners to.

Randy Evert

We hope you've enjoyed today's podcast. We invite you to visit our website, Faithful and true.com, where you'll find lots of resources, lots of information, as well as the online registration for our three day intensive workshops. We host the Men's Journey Workshop. Every month we have the Women's Journey workshops that we feature on a quarterly basis, and we now have two of the Couples Journey workshops that we have to offer.

Randy Evert

So check out the details about those events on our website and if we can be of some help for you, or if you're finding yourself struggling with sexual addiction or betrayal trauma, please reach out to us and and we can get you set up with one of our many talented therapists to help you through these troubled waters, if you will.

Randy Evert

In the meantime, we hope that this coming week for you will be a week that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.