The Desire to be Understood

Dr. Mark Laaser

Your history of acting out behavior and who you really are as a person, as a as a precious child of God. I mean, those can co-exist. They don't wipe each other out. What I'm saying, though, is that and I want to be heard and understood about this, I guess in terms of our audience, is that behind every long winded, repetitive, loud, dramatic argument, there's usually one theme sentence that you would like your partner to know before.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Sometimes going into conversations, it would be better to try to figure out what is it, and it's and it's brevity. You would love for your partner to know about your feelings for them, your perception of the world, your needs that you have and stuff like that.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. On today's program, we're going to feature another legacy episode in which I will have a conversation with doctor Mark Lazar as we discuss a part of our series on the seven desires of Every Heart. Today's episode is about the the desire to be understood. Mark had great wisdom and great understanding of the seven desires, and we hope that you'll find this episode to be very beneficial to you.

Randy Evert

Here now is doctor Mark Lazar and the Faithful and True podcast. The desire to be understood.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Randy, we're going to begin a new series today, and it's covering a topic we've mentioned before. Talked about a little bit before, but we're going to break it down and talk about the seven desires and spend a week on each desire.

Randy Evert

Well, I.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Think it's.

Randy Evert

A great idea. Mark, we've had your wife, Debbie, coauthor of Seven Desires of the Heart of Every Heart on the show previously, and the two of you addressed it then in that one show. But we get an awful lot of people calling not only to order the book, but asking about the book, asking about the seven desires. And I think that our listeners would be well served by us taking a show dedicated to each of those desires.

Dr. Mark Laaser

So, strangely enough, that's what we're going to do. And there are seven, and we're going to talk today about the first one, which is the desire to be heard and understood.

Randy Evert

I think we all have that one, don't we?

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, that's the point. We all have these desires. I think it's always good to set up a little history of this. In terms of where did the concept come from to begin with? And it really goes back to when Debbie and I were in treatment. And I say when we were intrigued, I was in treatment, I was the inpatient in treatment.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And Debbie came to what in the 30 day model of treatment is usually called Family Week. And during family Week, we encountered a lot of lectures about addiction and a lot of lectures about families and a lot of lectures about trauma. And what became clear in these lectures was that the average guy that struggles with addiction has a fair amount of invasive trauma historically in his life.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And some of the early research indicated that a lot of the spouses or the wives also had equal amounts of trauma. And at some level, we were not totally comfortable with that. We knew that there were certainly wives that had not experienced lots of invasion trauma, and that that started us thinking about, well, like in Debbie's family, it's a great and loving family.

Dr. Mark Laaser

There was no invasion trauma. There was no physical abuse, sexual abuse, overt emotional abuse. And, you know, how was it that you know, someone who comes from a relatively normal family like that, you know, decides to hook up with a, you know, guy that more traumatized growing up and also struggled all of his, you know, adult life from adolescence to the present with, you know, a fairly profound addiction.

Dr. Mark Laaser

How does that happen? So, you know, it really started us on, well, maybe in some families there's some things that we all need to get, but we don't get them enough or we don't get them as much as we need to. So that led us off into a kind of a quest for what are what are the universal desires that every person needs growing up, every child requires or needs.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And then one day, I'll clearly always remember we were on a plane and we just started listing what we thought some of those basic needs or desires were. And it sounds a bit arbitrary to come up with seven, but those were the seven that we came up with in the first one of those is the desire to be heard and understood.

Randy Evert

Well, it's funny that you start with that one, because I think in most especially most marriages, the desire to be heard and understood ranks right up there, because how many spouses will claim that their husband does not listen to them and does not clearly understand where she's coming from? Which leads to probably a great percentage of the marital struggles that are out there.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, you know, it is really interesting that there are any number of couples workshops, seminars and so forth out there. And one of the skills that's going to be be taught at one of these basic workshops is generally referred to as active listening. So active listening simply means that, you know, if I say something to you. We're having a conversation, you would repeat it back to me.

Dr. Mark Laaser

This is what I heard you say so that I can, you know, react to that and say, well, yeah, you heard it correctly or you you did take it in pretty much exactly as I said it. That's active listening. Meaning that I'm just going to repeat back to you what I heard you say. That's kind of a basic skill.

Randy Evert

I'm sorry you lost me there. What were you saying?

Randy Evert

Okay, well, that was my attempt at humor.

Dr. Mark Laaser

What I was saying is that it's hard to have a conversation and be heard when the other person is a smart out. That's what I was saying.

Randy Evert

So I'm at the root of all these problems now. It's. It's now becoming clear to you.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Yes. In our couple's relationship, you and me, Randy, I don't think you hear what I'm saying.

Randy Evert

I am the problem. Okay. All right. No, I think that that is a great, great point. When you and Deb were on that flight. Was this something that did you separately come up with your list and then compare notes, or did you think together what you thought would be those seven days? You know, those what turned out to be seven desires?

Dr. Mark Laaser

No. I think we were thinking out loud. Okay. We were. Well, you know, I think here's one. And then Debbie would say, I think this is another one. And then, you know, we were both kind of on the same wavelength and but no, we didn't come up with them independently and then compare list and then combine them. We were just talking out loud about like even in her family, great family.

Dr. Mark Laaser

What were some of the things that she felt like were not quite as present as she would have liked for them, or needed for them to be sure. So the other part of this, by the way, is that some of us who grew up in families where there was more overt abuse, you know, invasion kinds of abuse, at the same time we were getting invaded.

Dr. Mark Laaser

We were also not getting some of the desires met. So the people that were doing the more direct invasion simultaneously, they were not, in this case, the one we're talking about today, listening to us, the desire to be heard and understood. I think one of the ways to get into this is to think about this question. I mean, is there ever been anyone that you've been in relationship with say to you?

Dr. Mark Laaser

You're not listening or you don't understand or, and or you don't get it? So, Randy, you're married to a very lovely woman. Has she ever said that to you? You don't get it. Randy, you don't hear me. You're not listening.

Randy Evert

I don't think she's ever said those words, per se, but I think that she's given the impression that she thinks I'm not listening or I don't, that I'm not seeing her point of view on a subject that we're talking about. And usually in our case, it's probably some issue that's dealing with one of our boys. It just seems the only time that we ever, you know, find ourselves in a, in a conversation that's kind of more energy fueled or emotionally fueled.

Randy Evert

It has to do with the kids. And so we sometimes find ourselves coming from two different backgrounds to. I'm a very traditional guy who is, you know, raised in the in the 50s and 60s with, with parents that were loving but but strict. And so, you know, we live in a generation now where kids are just so much more or at least they behave entitled and things like that, you know, which leads us to have two different perspectives sometimes in how you're raising the kids.

Randy Evert

So you're right. Are you listening to me? Do you get it? Do you feel how I feel about what we should be doing, you know, with the kids right now?

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, you've just identified, I think, one of the problems when we don't feel heard, and that is you use the term there agreement, we're not necessarily in agreement. And you talked about coming from two different kind of backgrounds in terms of parenting styles. I think a lot of people do confuse the fact that if another person doesn't agree with me, they're not listening to me or they don't understand things the way that I understand them.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Remember, this is a desire to be heard and understood. But sometimes I think with a lot of different systems of thought, as we keep going along and describing these things, we're tempted to think of new ways to describe it. I think if we had to label this one today, we'd call this the desire to be known, to be fully known.

Dr. Mark Laaser

So in other words, if we're heard, if we're understood, we have that feeling that the other person knows us. And I think a lot of us can go back even to our childhood and remember experiences where we didn't sense that Mom and dad were listening. They didn't get us. They didn't understand us. We weren't really known. In some ways.

Randy Evert

It's interesting that you put it that way, because in my eyes, is that a situation that improves over time as a couple truly does learn to know each other? You know, I would think that after 20 some years of marriage that we've enjoyed, that she would know me to, to a degree, that she knows where my heart is.

Randy Evert

You know, she knows that she and my kids have got 110% of my support and love and understanding. But at the same time, there are times that it just seems that you're that we're both looking at something in two totally different ways that that I think to myself, don't you know me well enough to know that whatever.

Dr. Mark Laaser

I think we sometimes would like it if our partners, our spouses, our friends, you know, could start with the assumption that we love them, care for them, support them, pray for them, could, in fact, read our minds. I think that's a very dangerous assumption.

Randy Evert

That's that's a whole nother show.

Dr. Mark Laaser

It's like the old we have these jokes up in Minnesota about Sven and Ollie and of course, Ollie's wife, Lena. Ollie says to Lena, I told you when we got married that I loved you. And if something changes, I'll let you know. So.

Dr. Mark Laaser

I'm sorry. I don't know what made me think of that.

Randy Evert

Fast forward 50 years and it's the same.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, I think there's a part of us that would like it if our spouse new us, you know, just automatically understood us, knows our needs, knows our wants, knows our desires, knows our thoughts and perceptions. I mean, I think we'd all like to be known that way. I think that's kind of lazy, actually. It means that the other person is a mind reader or something like that.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And that's not what we're talking about here. I'm just asking the listeners to think about the times and their relationships. When someone is said to them, you don't get it or you don't understand it, you're not listening. You don't hear me. I think part of what you're bringing up is that sometimes how we hear someone also passes through the filter of our life experience and our perceptions of the world.

Randy Evert

I think that's correct.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Which is all the more reason sometimes to check things out. So I may say something to Debbie. She may say something back. I have a filter in my brain that she's angry with me. Well, in fact, she's not. So, you know, I may say something like, I hear what you're saying. This is what you said it would. It would seem to me that you're angry with me.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Is that true? And then we can we can talk back and forth and be more fully understood.

Randy Evert

So, as the coauthor of The Seven Desires of Every Heart. How do you take this desire and.

Randy Evert

Use it within your relationship?

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, let's talk about some of the ways we cope with this one, when we don't feel like we are being heard.

Randy Evert

I guess that's what I mean. What's the real life application of this?

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, I'm talking about some of the dysfunctional ways we might deal with this historically. One of them would be what does a three year old do, Randy, if they they're not feeling heard by their parents? What were.

Randy Evert

They do they kick and scream and make themselves very noticeable?

Dr. Mark Laaser

That's right. So they do something rather dramatic so that they will be noticed that we sometimes would refer to that as a temper tantrum. Right? Right. So I think it's amazing to us in our counseling office when we're working with couples, that there's times when it would appear to us that we're we're in the room with two three year olds.

Dr. Mark Laaser

They're yelling, they're not necessarily screaming. Their voices are really loud. They're very emotional. They are rather out of control, so to speak. Now, don't get me wrong, we don't let this go on longer than a few seconds. We'll interrupt it. But, you know, at times I think, you know, we learn somewhere as two, three, four year olds that the way to get our parents attention was to cry, scream, hit the wall, do something rather dramatic.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And we still have that old message inside of ourselves that the way to be heard and understood is to get loud and dramatic. It could simply be that we raise our voice. How many of us assume that our partner is hearing impaired? So you know that they're deaf and we just need to talk louder. How many of us have ever talked more loudly or we've talked slowly?

Dr. Mark Laaser

So we mouthed the words. We say it slowly, as if you know, that's what it will take to get our partner to finally here what we're saying. So sometimes when couples are in that back and forth, you know, it's a very loud, dramatic conversation. I think another thing we'll do is we'll repeat things people don't like letting go of control of a conversation if and but so, you know, those are all contractions that are kind of part of a conversation.

Dr. Mark Laaser

It means you may not have finished a sentence. You may not have finished the conversation. You don't want to let control of the conversation and let the other person interrupt. So you'll just keep talking. The assumption there is that if I if I use enough words, then maybe my partner will finally understand.

Randy Evert

Well, it's back to your your last point. I've been in conversations before where it appeared that the loudest talker is is right. That's right. That is, you know, the louder I talk, I'll be more correct in what I'm saying.

Dr. Mark Laaser

That's right. Yeah. The more strident I am. Louder. Another thing that happens in terms of repeating things, I mean, how many times will we say the same thing over and over and over and over again, again trying to be heard and understood? I think another thing we'll do is site authority, meaning that I'm trying to I'm trying to get you to understand something.

Dr. Mark Laaser

I'm trying to get you to hear me about something. And so I'll cite every authority that I can think of that proves my point. We call this being super reasonable will bring in various, you know, authors that we've been reading. When all else fails, you know, we Christians tend to want to quote some Scripture passage that proves our point.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And we beat each other up over, over the head with, you know, the Bible, so to speak. We had a lawyer and his wife once in here, and he literally kept notes on a legal pad, and he was kind of building his case. And we came to call this whole dynamic case building. You're you're building your case to convince your partner that you are right and he or she is wrong.

Randy Evert

So in his closing statements to the court, he was going to be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was correct.

Dr. Mark Laaser

That he was correct. His wife was absolutely crazy, and there was no way she should feel the way that she did. That was, you know, part of what he was trying to be heard and understood about. Debbie and I oftentimes, you know, when we were counseling, we do feel like judge and jury. The couple wants us to make a declaration.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, I think the husband is right about this or the wife is right about this. And that's not the way we operate here. You know, you have an opinion. You have a perception. You have a feeling. You know, you don't need to justify those or rationalize those or prove those. You know, we just want to hear you about what your feelings or perceptions are, attitudes or beliefs.

Dr. Mark Laaser

You know, we want to hear what those are all about. I think what's worse for us, and this happens all the time. So we're working with a couple in counseling, and the man is going to me for individual and going to the individual group counseling. The wife is going to Debbie for counseling and the individual counseling group. They will hear things that we say to them individually or hear things that we say in group, and then they're back at home talking to each other.

Dr. Mark Laaser

And this is the way the super reasonable conversation goes. Is that, well, you know, Doctor Laser said, you know, well, you know, on the other hand, Debbie said, in my group, we've had an experience of that happened this week where it was totally not a out of context, but the point of it is that, you know, our desire and beneath all of this super reasonable, case building, argumentative, history repeating stuff is we want to be understood about something.

Dr. Mark Laaser

I remember back in the early days of my recovery when I had my my story on the front pages of the of the newspaper where we were living at the time. And I remember, you know, I had the desire to be heard and understood that I was not as evil a person as what some of the.

Randy Evert

The articles appeared to paint.

Dr. Mark Laaser

You Make Me Out to Me, which, you know, was interesting because, you know, some of my behaviors that they were reporting about were in fact outrageous and totally sinful. There was a part of me, though, that wanted to like, take out an ad in the newspaper, which of course, we couldn't afford. But if I could have, would have said, you know, Mark is not such a bad guy.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Underneath a lot of these repetitive conversations and arguments, there's generally a theme that we'd like our partner to know. And maybe it is that I really, even though I did all this crazy stuff, I do, in fact still love you and still want to be with you. Even though I have struggled with addiction all of my life. There's another part of me that is a good guy that wants to be known as a loving husband and father.

Dr. Mark Laaser

You know your history of acting out behavior and who you really are as a person, as a as a precious child of God. I mean, those can coexist. They don't wipe each other out. What I'm saying, though, is that and I want to be heard and understood about this, I guess in terms of our audience, is that behind every long winded, repetitive, loud, dramatic argument, there's usually one theme sentence that you would like your partner to know before.

Dr. Mark Laaser

Sometimes going into conversations, it would be better to try to figure out what is it, and it's in its brevity. You would love for your partner to know about your feelings for them, your perception of the world, your needs that you have, and stuff like that.

Randy Evert

And so often most of us don't make that statement right. Is that correct?

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, it's interesting we sometimes do. You see, I've noticed that in some conversations, not all, but some. The first sentence out of your mouth is the truth. And then we footnote it. Right, you know. Right. I need you to know I really love you. Now, here's my case evidence that demonstrates why I really do. Then we go on for minutes or not, you know, hours.

Dr. Mark Laaser

I would say to the listeners, be aware of your conversations and see how often it might be true that what your central message is, how soon it comes out in a conversation. And you'd be better off stopping then and asking your partner if you if if he or she heard the theme.

Randy Evert

Well, I think that this is going to be a great series. Mark, I think that we have started today with this first of the seven desires. I think our listeners are going to benefit from this series, and I appreciate you coming up with this concept. And are there any parting thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with as we close this first of Seven Desires of the heart?

Dr. Mark Laaser

Well, I think like we did in one of our earlier series, it's not always it's not bad to end with the Scripture when we talk about any of this stuff. And one of the theme scriptures of this whole series is Psalm 37, verse four, which basically says, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will grant you the desires of your heart, so that we know that we all have these universal desires to be heard and understood and known.

Dr. Mark Laaser

God is the one that listens, understands and knows us, knows us even since the moment of our conception.

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. We hope that you've enjoyed this presentation. It's always a joy to be able to hear once again the the words of doctor Mark laser. We hope that this has been beneficial to you as well. We would like to also invite you to visit our website, Faithful and True, where you'll find many beneficial benefits to you there and lots of online information and registration for our three day intensive workshops.

Randy Evert

We have the Men's Journey Workshop, which we offer every month. Then throughout the year we have several of the Women's Women's Journey workshop as well as the Couples Journey workshops. So we invite you to take a look at the website and learn all about those events. In the meantime, we hope that this coming week for you will be a week that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.