The Desire to be Touched

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One of the things that happens in the human brain

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when we touch each other, skin to skin,

is the release

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of a very powerful neurochemical

called oxytocin.

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And oxytocin is a bonding chemical.

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It gives us a sense of well-being.

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It gives us a sense of contentment.

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It gives us a sense of connection.

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Most mothers listening to the show.

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Are, you know, I find when I,

when I talk about this out in public.

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Others automatically get this

because they, they know that,

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you know, their initial bonding experience

with a baby

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is based on oxytocin.

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That that even nursing a child,

holding a child,

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touching a child produces

this very powerful neurochemical and bonds

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that baby to that mother or, you know,

other cases, obviously to the father.

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And so it's an important way

that we connect

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with each other to touch each other,

skin to skin, in healthy ways.

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Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast.

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I'm Randy Everett, your co-host.

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And today we've got a

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a podcast from the legacy series

featuring doctor Mark Lazar.

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And it's talking about the desire

to be touched.

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This is part of our Seven Desires

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collection, and you're sure to enjoy it.

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As Mark and I get the opportunity to delve

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into the desire to be touched.

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Here now is doctor Mark Lazar

and the Faithful and True podcast.

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Proceeding with our ongoing discussion

of the seven desires of the heart.

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And we have arrived at number five,

which is the desire for touch.

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And I think.

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That is,

you know, as with the other desires, quite

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universal in its in its relevance.

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I think one of the first things

to talk about is, given what we normally

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deal with here in terms of sexuality

and sexual infidelities and so forth,

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that the vast majority

of our population of men

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have made a very dramatically destructive

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association, and that is that

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the only way they get touch is by

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getting sexual touch.

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And what we believe here

at Faithful and True.

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And certainly what is part of this

teaching about the fifth desire?

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The desire for touch is that God has built

into our brains, literally

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into our brains, the healthy desire

for two different kinds of touch.

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One is sexual touch.

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God said that we should all be fruitful

and multiply.

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He instructed Adam and Eve about that,

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and he's put that normal desire

in our head so that and this is the point

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we've made a number of times on the show

that sexual desire is not the problem.

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It's how we manage sexual desire.

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That's the challenge, right?

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So sexual desire is quite normal

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and quite natural,

and God put it there for a reason.

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Now we also believe that

we all desire touch that is non-sexual.

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That is just touch in general

healthy touch.

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We sometimes refer to it as.

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And what I was just trying to say

is that the average addict that we work

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with is confusing,

that their desire for a normal

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touch is the only way they get

that is by getting sexual touch.

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And part

of what we all need to distinguish

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is that we can get healthy touch

without it being sexual in nature.

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Well,

I think that it's rather interesting.

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As we have touched on.

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Excuse me, use the word touch right there.

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On the earlier desires

that when it comes to touch,

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it reinforces some of the other desires.

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A touch can be affirming, right?

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You know, a touch can be carrying

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the message that you are blessed

or that you're safe.

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If it's if it is delivered in the

in the correct spirit.

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Well, you know, you're bringing up

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something that is really interesting

to a lot of the people that we work with.

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That sometimes, whether touch is safe

or not, is a matter of perspective

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or interpretation or sometimes

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historical experience. So,

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I know that when I first got involved

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in the recovery program, you know,

I would go to support group meetings.

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And at the end of these meetings, people

would, you know, generally stand up,

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either

hold hands, put arms around each other

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and say things like the Serenity Prayer

and so forth.

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I remember,

you know, in the early days myself,

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you know,

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having experienced some sexual abuse that,

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touch from men in general

did not always feel safe.

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And even though the

the men involved in this,

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you know, were completely,

you know, heterosexual

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and not intending it for it to be anything

else, there was a part of my history

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that led me to not interpret

it as being safe.

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But but would you say that

there have been, over the years,

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kind of stereotypical thought

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behind touch when when it came to men?

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Well, yeah.

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I mean, I think we all have had certain

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cultural teaching about touch.

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I mean, you can go to other cultures,

you know, I'll never forget,

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the, the really wonderful trip

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that Debbie and I took last October down

to Brazil.

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The men down there, the Brazilians are

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not unlike

other cultures like Italy or so forth.

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But, you know, they love touching.

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You know, they love giving you hugs and.

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Notorious huggers. Well, not just huggers.

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They like kissing you on the cheek.

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Okay.

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There was a number of men

who just thought it was really

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one of the highest compliments

that they could give you

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was to give you a hug and kiss you

on the cheek while they were hugging you.

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Sure.

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Well, you know, the first day

I'm down there, I'm like,

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you know, I have my cultural biases,

which, you know, men do not do this,

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you know, straight

men certainly don't do this.

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And so I really had a hard time with it.

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But by the but by the fourth or fifth day

that we're down there and we're finally

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leaving, I'd grown so accustomed to it

that it actually felt kind of nice.

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So it does go to show you that, you know,

some of our biases, some of our cultural

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beliefs and some of our life experience,

you know, can be corrected.

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You know, the brain can be corrected.

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Well within our culture.

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I think that it's fascinating

to even study.

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Let's take something

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an example that

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everybody's familiar

with watching The Tonight Show.

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Yeah.

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And and you,

you flashback to all the years

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that we watched Johnny Carson

and introduce that new guests.

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And the new guest came

from behind the curtain,

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and there was a handshake

and and they sat down and to a guest, now

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you see the host, whether it be Jimmy

Fallon or whomever, stand up.

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And I was watching a rerun

they showed the other night of Clint

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Eastwood was the guest on The Tonight

Show.

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And to see Clint Eastwood

come around the corner and

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and get a big hug from Jimmy Fallon,

he was there promoting

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Jersey boys,

the most recent film that he had directed.

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But hugging is just really has kind of

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culturally become the norm on

a lot of the shows there.

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You know,

no one is is being alarmed by seeing that.

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Well, there can be cultural change.

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I think some of us who are older,

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we certainly grew up in a culture where,

you know, you,

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the only way you would touch

a man would be to give him a handshake.

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And, basically,

I think what we're talking about here

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is that whether there's cultural beliefs

or expectations or norms,

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whatever those are, whatever we're used

to, whatever, you know,

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we've taken into ourselves, we all need

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healthy touch on it on a daily basis.

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One of the things that we talk about

very often

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here on this program is, the brain and,

you know, what it requires

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and what happens in the brain

when certain behaviors take place.

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And one of the things that happens

in the human brain

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when we touch each other, skin to skin,

is the release

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of a very powerful neurochemical

called oxytocin.

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And oxytocin is a bonding chemical.

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It gives us a sense of well-being.

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It gives us a sense of

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contentment.

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It gives us a sense of connection.

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Most mothers listening to the show.

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You know, I find when

I, when I talk about this out in public,

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mothers automatically get this

because they, they know that,

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you know, their initial bonding experience

with a baby

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is based on oxytocin

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that that even nursing a child,

holding a child,

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touching a child produces

this very powerful neurochemical and bonds

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that baby to that mother or, you know,

other cases, obviously to the father.

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And so it's an important way

that we connect

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with each other to touch each other,

skin to skin, in healthy ways.

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I think that, as I recall,

I've heard you say on several occasions

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that it is a scientific,

proven fact with a newborn child,

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where a newborn child who was deprived

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of touch will struggle, to say the least.

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You know, in some cases wither

and not survive

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versus the child that is touched held.

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Yeah. That is right.

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There's a medical condition

that, in layman's terms,

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is generally called failure to thrive,

and that a baby can be

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protected, can be even

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artificially fed

through intravenous feeding.

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But if you know the mother,

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the nurses, the doctors are not directly

touching that baby.

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The baby may still stop

growing, stop thriving.

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Failure to thrive and can,

even in some extreme cases, die.

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One of the more fascinating experiences,

again, it

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involves a missionary trip story of ours.

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We were in South Korea

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and we were flying back

on, you know, a very lengthy plane trip.

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And there was a couple on board

that had adopted a baby from a Korean

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orphanage, and they were very proudly

carrying this little girl,

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you know, up and down the aisles,

comforting her, holding her, touching her.

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And I, you know, I, I'm very social.

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So I was making conversation

with the father and,

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I said, this is a lovely young daughter

you have.

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How old is she?

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She appeared to be to me about 4 or 5,

six months old.

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And the father said, no, she's a

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about she's about one year old.

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And I looked surprised

and he said, no, it's understandable.

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We got her from a very good orphanage.

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But the orphanage was understaffed,

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overwhelmed,

and most of the babies, you know, were.

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What was left for them

was that they were in their cribs all day

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and they were

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well cared for and well fed, but deprived,

but deprived of lots of touch.

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So this little girl, had stopped

growing, evidently.

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And and that's the failure

to thrive thing.

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And the good news there is that,

you know, now with loving parents

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who are going to give her daily, hourly,

minute by minute attention,

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this little girl will catch up,

I'm sure if you were to meet her today,

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she would appear completely

normal in every way.

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And that's that's

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the beauty of the way, you know,

I think I can correct things

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if we are in our healing journey

and able to get healthy touch.

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It has a very healing and curative

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capability.

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One last thing about this

before we take the break, I think,

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and that is that you were talking

you were referring to medical studies.

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There's been a number of medical studies

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in hospitals that have shown

if the nurses,

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are instructed to regularly touch

their patients skin to skin.

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In other words,

if we take off the plastic.

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Gloves and despite the risk of infection,

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touch the patients.

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There have been some studies

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which have shown that the patients

who are touched regularly,

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like every 15 minutes, even in one study,

that was one of my favorites.

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Those patients actually, healed twice

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as fast as the ones who, you know,

just had artificial touch through

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plastic gloves

or, you know, very little touch at all.

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So the, the oxytocin,

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element of human physical

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touch is an incredibly powerful,

incredibly bonding,

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connecting and healing neurochemical

that God's put in the brain.

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And really,

it reflects the desire that we all have

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for connection and togetherness.

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So, human touch of a non-sexual nature

that's safe touch.

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That's another term that we use

is incredibly, incredibly powerful.

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We're in the midst of our series

on the seven desires of every Heart,

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which, of course, is the title of the book

that you and Debbie,

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Debbie Laser

and Mark laser co-wrote together.

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And the book

is now available in paperback, and it's

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simply called

Seven Desires in its paperback form,

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and both books are available

at Faithful and True in our bookstore.

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We encourage you to check that out.

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But back to the days discussion

about the desire to be touched.

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One of the things that I'm thinking about

is that so many of the men,

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myself included historically,

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have really thought

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one of their core beliefs

is that the only way

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they're going to get touched

in any way, shape or fashion is to,

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you know, to have it be sexual touch.

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And some of the men

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established this connection very early on.

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For some reason.

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I always think of this story,

which is kind of a proverbial story,

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meaning it's a very common story that we

hear here at the workshops all the time.

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One of the men was describing that

when he was seven, like a lot of our men

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who struggle with some level of brain

chemistry

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issues like ADHD and so forth.

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He had a very hard time

going to sleep at night.

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He would lay awake, toss and turn,

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be angry with himself

that he couldn't go to sleep.

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And he remembers,

as he got into thinking about this,

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that there was a part of him

that always had longed for his mother

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to come into the bedroom,

say good night to him,

00;15;10;21 - 00;15;14;22

be gentle, nice, affirming,

pray whatever with him.

00;15;14;22 - 00;15;17;27

And perhaps

as part of that good night ritual,

00;15;18;01 - 00;15;21;20

that she would give him a back rub

or something of that nature.

00;15;22;14 - 00;15;27;14

The mother, for whatever reason, we do not

know, was too busy to depleted whatever.

00;15;27;14 - 00;15;29;20

She would not come in and do any of that.

00;15;29;20 - 00;15;32;19

And so the guy said, what I learned to do

00;15;32;28 - 00;15;36;11

my my body just somehow knew

it needed to be comforted.

00;15;36;17 - 00;15;39;12

And so I, you know,

I would start touching myself.

00;15;39;12 - 00;15;44;10

And I remember this

this, was a memory from when he was seven.

00;15;44;17 - 00;15;48;06

So, you know, in touching himself,

he obviously discovered that

00;15;48;06 - 00;15;52;06

one of the more sensitive areas

of the body to touch herself is genitalia.

00;15;52;06 - 00;15;55;03

And so he said, well,

that produces a lot of comfort.

00;15;55;03 - 00;15;56;15

So he kept doing it.

00;15;56;15 - 00;15;57;24

Well, as he is.

00;15;57;24 - 00;16;03;03

He's doing this in an ongoing way now

as he gets to ten, 11, 12, that one night

00;16;03;03 - 00;16;07;10

he discovers that that activity

will lead to his first Jacqueline.

00;16;07;16 - 00;16;11;15

And now he's really kind of off

to the races

00;16;11;15 - 00;16;15;24

where on a nightly basis, he's

going to need to masturbate

00;16;15;24 - 00;16;19;28

in order to calm himself down

and put him to sleep as

00;16;20;20 - 00;16;24;02

and that, you know, is a common ritual,

common practice.

00;16;24;04 - 00;16;27;21

And it you can see in that story,

going back to age seven,

00;16;27;22 - 00;16;31;18

a young boy just desiring

the healthy connection with his mother

00;16;31;18 - 00;16;35;14

that, you know,

he found a false substitute for that.

00;16;35;22 - 00;16;38;22

So when you're working with these men,

Mark,

00;16;38;23 - 00;16;41;12

how is it that you're able to.

00;16;41;12 - 00;16;45;02

I know that you know

so much about retraining the brain,

00;16;45;02 - 00;16;48;01

which is a powerful thing

to be able to do.

00;16;48;01 - 00;16;52;03

And one one that we know is a truism.

00;16;53;07 - 00;16;54;00

How do you

00;16;54;00 - 00;16;57;25

redirect that long history of thought

that they've had

00;16;58;02 - 00;17;02;12

and in reestablishing

the importance of, of healthy touch?

00;17;02;23 - 00;17;04;10

Well, I think it's practicing.

00;17;04;10 - 00;17;06;04

You know,

the word practice comes in all the time,

00;17;06;04 - 00;17;09;22

which practice is about the repetition

now of healthy behavior.

00;17;09;22 - 00;17;13;14

So I was referring to the difficulty

that I had in the early days,

00;17;13;14 - 00;17;16;14

being around men

who wanted to give me hugs or whatever.

00;17;16;25 - 00;17;19;13

I had to at some point allow that.

00;17;19;13 - 00;17;21;25

It was,

00;17;21;25 - 00;17;23;12

a discomfort that I was going

00;17;23;12 - 00;17;26;20

to have to get past

so that I allowed it to happen.

00;17;26;25 - 00;17;31;07

And I began reminding myself continually

in the middle of that, of the truth.

00;17;31;15 - 00;17;35;03

And now I can honestly say

that my brain has retrained

00;17;35;03 - 00;17;37;10

itself, that I don't have

that same trigger. Right?

00;17;37;10 - 00;17;40;10

That this

this is not a sexual advance, right?

00;17;40;18 - 00;17;45;11

This is an expression of friendship,

warmth.

00;17;46;03 - 00;17;49;23

Well, like you were talking earlier,

affirmation, blessing and so forth.

00;17;49;23 - 00;17;54;16

So that basically it's training myself

to know that men can be safe.

00;17;54;18 - 00;17;57;18

Sure, there was a part of me

that used to believe that

00;17;57;19 - 00;18;01;17

men are not safe,

and certainly men's touch is not safe,

00;18;01;26 - 00;18;05;18

and it had nothing to do

with any kind of homosexual part of me.

00;18;05;18 - 00;18;07;23

It was just it was just based on fear.

00;18;07;23 - 00;18;09;27

So as you and Debbie are working

00;18;10;27 - 00;18;13;28

so effectively with couples, what?

00;18;14;07 - 00;18;16;24

How do you approach this desire

when you're working

00;18;16;24 - 00;18;18;01

with a husband and wife?

00;18;18;01 - 00;18;21;01

Well, one of the things we find

is that a lot of the couples

00;18;21;01 - 00;18;24;01

that we work with,

given the confusion that the

00;18;24;04 - 00;18;27;15

the husband in our case, you know, is

generally brought into the marriage.

00;18;27;15 - 00;18;31;24

So, the husband's ring into the marriage,

a confusing about touch.

00;18;31;24 - 00;18;35;04

The only way I'm going to get touch is to

is to be sexually touched.

00;18;35;19 - 00;18;39;14

You know, the desire for touch

is so profound that it can lead the

00;18;39;20 - 00;18;44;14

husbands, in many cases, to be incredibly

sexually aggressive and demanding.

00;18;44;14 - 00;18;47;04

And and,

you know, it's really part of their fear.

00;18;47;04 - 00;18;48;05

It's part of their anxiety.

00;18;48;05 - 00;18;51;23

It's it's part of how they comfort

themselves to get sexual touch.

00;18;51;23 - 00;18;57;17

So the problem is that they have literally

made their spouses afraid of their touch

00;18;57;28 - 00;19;02;03

over time because it has been so demanding

and they have been so

00;19;03;04 - 00;19;04;24

energetic and pursuing it.

00;19;04;24 - 00;19;08;21

And, you know, let's be honest,

you know, in our population of Christians,

00;19;08;25 - 00;19;14;02

the Bible, I think, is oftentimes

been misused to tell wives that, you know,

00;19;14;03 - 00;19;19;11

they have a duty to perform, that they

should submit and all this kind of thing.

00;19;19;15 - 00;19;20;19

I'm not going to get into all of

00;19;20;19 - 00;19;23;03

that today

because it's a quite controversial topic.

00;19;23;03 - 00;19;27;10

But I do think that in that desperate

desire that we all have to be touched,

00;19;27;12 - 00;19;32;05

we'll use any and all resources, including

Scripture itself, you know, to to.

00;19;32;06 - 00;19;33;29

That's a good gauge of desperation.

00;19;33;29 - 00;19;35;19

Isn't a good gauge of desperation.

00;19;35;19 - 00;19;38;15

God said, you should say yes,

you know, and.

00;19;38;15 - 00;19;41;07

See it right here. It's in the Bible.

You can't question it.

00;19;41;07 - 00;19;44;28

And, you know, I,

we consider that today to be, you know,

00;19;44;29 - 00;19;50;01

spiritual abuse and misuse of Scripture

and, and a misunderstanding

00;19;50;01 - 00;19;53;09

of the context of the entire passages here

that we're talking about.

00;19;53;12 - 00;19;56;15

But let's just say that

the average couple that we deal with,

00;19;56;16 - 00;20;01;06

there's been a really great deal

of confusion about the difference

00;20;01;06 - 00;20;05;23

between healthy touch and sexual touch,

that both are normal desires.

00;20;05;26 - 00;20;09;19

What we're going to have to work

with our couples about is, but, you know,

00;20;09;22 - 00;20;13;19

both the husband and wife is helping them

to make that distinction.

00;20;13;19 - 00;20;17;11

So one of the one of the things

we advise couples to do is that

00;20;17;18 - 00;20;21;00

and it goes back to the part

of the program that most of our addicts

00;20;21;01 - 00;20;22;20

go through called sexual abstinence.

00;20;22;20 - 00;20;28;02

So, you know, for a period of time, 30,

60, 90 days, we're going to take sexuality

00;20;28;03 - 00;20;31;14

out of their relationship

by mutual agreement, which is, by the way,

00;20;32;02 - 00;20;35;24

for those biblical literalists and purists

out there, first Corinthians seven verse

00;20;35;24 - 00;20;39;27

five, don't deny each other

except for a time and by mutual consent,

00;20;40;04 - 00;20;42;16

so that you can devote yourself

to prayer and fasting.

00;20;43;15 - 00;20;43;27

So we

00;20;43;27 - 00;20;47;17

take it out by mutual consent

so that we can work on other things

00;20;47;20 - 00;20;50;29

prayer and fasting, meaning the spiritual

connection between the couple.

00;20;51;06 - 00;20;54;20

Now during that time, it doesn't mean

that the couple has to stop

00;20;54;20 - 00;20;59;15

touching each other, it just means that

they've agreed to no genital sexuality.

00;20;59;20 - 00;21;05;00

So we will say to the husband, you know,

if you want to hold your hand,

00;21;05;07 - 00;21;07;23

hold the hand of your spouse,

you need to say to her

00;21;07;23 - 00;21;10;25

something to the effect,

I would like to hold your hand.

00;21;11;00 - 00;21;13;08

And this is not about wanting

to be sexual.

00;21;13;08 - 00;21;15;05

And not not.

00;21;15;05 - 00;21;19;17

Yeah, this is not an advance

or an indicator of my intentions.

00;21;19;18 - 00;21;19;29

Yeah.

00;21;19;29 - 00;21;24;27

And you know, remember that a lot of the

addicts, given their histories the spouse.

00;21;24;27 - 00;21;28;07

Well, he's he's he seems to right now

it's 9:00 in the morning.

00;21;28;07 - 00;21;29;15

He just wants to hold my hand.

00;21;29;15 - 00;21;31;17

But I know what this means for later

00;21;32;22 - 00;21;34;04

or whatever, you know.

00;21;34;04 - 00;21;35;13

10:00 at night.

00;21;35;13 - 00;21;37;05

Like. At night.

It has a whole different meaning.

00;21;37;05 - 00;21;41;00

It has a whole different meaning or a hug

or, you know, whatever else it is. So.

00;21;41;09 - 00;21;44;23

But we we believe in intentionality,

meaning that

00;21;44;23 - 00;21;48;17

verbally

you've got to state intentionality.

00;21;48;22 - 00;21;50;28

So right now, I'd like to give you a hug.

00;21;50;28 - 00;21;56;02

And it's not about any sexual desire or

any expectation that I have to be sexual.

00;21;56;24 - 00;21;58;17

We could even be lying in bed together.

00;21;58;17 - 00;22;02;04

And I'd like to give you a hug or a kiss,

or just lie

00;22;02;05 - 00;22;05;05

next to you here in bed

and be comforted by your presence.

00;22;05;06 - 00;22;08;06

And I have no expectation

00;22;08;06 - 00;22;11;06

that it lead to sex.

00;22;11;16 - 00;22;14;16

This is a, you know,

kind of gets to be fuzzy because,

00;22;14;16 - 00;22;17;21

you know, even how the guys put it,

it's like, I have no expectation.

00;22;17;22 - 00;22;21;16

And if you were to be in the mood,

I would be open.

00;22;21;16 - 00;22;22;14

No no no no no.

00;22;24;00 - 00;22;25;01

However, it's.

00;22;25;01 - 00;22;27;24

Like it's like a disclaimer. Yeah.

00;22;27;24 - 00;22;29;02

There's always a disclaimer.

00;22;29;02 - 00;22;31;21

I wouldn't say no, you know.

00;22;31;21 - 00;22;35;12

So one of the interesting things about it

is that when we can get past

00;22;35;12 - 00;22;39;19

some of the initial pain of what sexuality

is represented in the relationship,

00;22;39;21 - 00;22;42;03

we can get to a more humorous place

about it.

00;22;42;03 - 00;22;46;03

But the key to this

is that in the early days of recovery,

00;22;46;04 - 00;22;49;04

by that I mean the first months

and perhaps even year or two,

00;22;49;12 - 00;22;52;12

you know, everything that we do

when it comes to physical touch and sexual

00;22;52;13 - 00;22;58;10

touch really needs to be a whole lot

more intentional than we think about it.

00;22;58;11 - 00;23;02;18

You know, when we see sex portrayed

even in the most ordinary of movies,

00;23;02;20 - 00;23;04;06

it's always spontaneous.

00;23;04;06 - 00;23;06;10

It's always based on mutual energy.

00;23;06;10 - 00;23;10;04

Nobody says, no,

everybody's happy, and it moves forward

00;23;10;04 - 00;23;12;17

with great levels

of adrenaline and excitement.

00;23;12;17 - 00;23;16;29

That's a misrepresentation

of the sexual relationship down the road.

00;23;17;00 - 00;23;21;10

You know, I think there's a whole lot

more intentionality to it.

00;23;21;16 - 00;23;23;28

I was listening for some reason to,

00;23;24;27 - 00;23;25;26

a YouTube video

00;23;25;26 - 00;23;30;23

with one of the great sex

pioneers, Virginia Johnson of Masters

00;23;30;23 - 00;23;33;23

in Johnson fame, who did all the great

early sexual research.

00;23;33;23 - 00;23;36;24

And, you know, they were proponents early

on that couples,

00;23;37;15 - 00;23;40;00

plan for any and all physical activity.

00;23;40;00 - 00;23;42;24

You know,

you make a date to be sexual or whatever.

00;23;42;24 - 00;23;46;04

And that's the kind of intentionality

that we're talking about.

00;23;46;07 - 00;23;49;19

And she said, most people, you know,

when they hear this idea of ours,

00;23;49;19 - 00;23;52;25

she said, you know, they think, well,

no sex is spontaneous, it's playful.

00;23;52;26 - 00;23;55;18

It's, you know, we just

we just gradually, you know.

00;23;55;18 - 00;23;57;28

Let it happen. And let it happen,

move toward it.

00;23;57;28 - 00;24;03;18

And Virginia Denson said, you know,

I tell people, you know, you plan a picnic

00;24;03;25 - 00;24;07;13

and you know, you plan the food

and the blankets and the place

00;24;07;13 - 00;24;09;00

and the park and where you're going to go.

00;24;09;00 - 00;24;12;11

And you may, you know, plan

this for a week or a month ahead of time.

00;24;12;13 - 00;24;15;05

And then when you get to the picnic,

you really enjoy it.

00;24;15;05 - 00;24;17;27

Yeah. It's perfect. It's perfect

because you remembered everything.

00;24;17;27 - 00;24;18;16

Yeah. So.

00;24;18;16 - 00;24;22;00

And you've got it well planned, you know,

why can't that be the same thing

00;24;22;00 - 00;24;24;26

when it comes to the intentionality

of our sexuality?

00;24;24;26 - 00;24;28;17

And I'm just saying that, you know,

with with addiction,

00;24;28;29 - 00;24;32;04

with addicts

having confused the two kinds of touch,

00;24;32;07 - 00;24;36;06

it becomes very important to separate out

the two kinds of touch.

00;24;36;06 - 00;24;42;09

And for the spouse to know that

that you as a man or safe, you know,

00;24;42;11 - 00;24;46;17

and that there's times

when you can touch and safe, non-compact

00;24;46;17 - 00;24;51;10

and non-sexual ways

and that can be very connecting.

00;24;51;20 - 00;24;55;02

Now, you know, for others

that are listening at their

00;24;55;13 - 00;24;58;27

when when we think, you know, men

tend to think that that's

00;24;58;27 - 00;25;02;05

after sex, that I feel more connected.

00;25;02;24 - 00;25;06;13

Women tend to think historically,

at least in terms of stereotypes.

00;25;06;14 - 00;25;09;17

I need to feel connected

before I move into sex.

00;25;09;25 - 00;25;10;24

It is both.

00;25;10;24 - 00;25;12;20

Both are the case. Both are true.

00;25;12;20 - 00;25;16;09

I mean, men will feel more connected,

as will the spouses after sex,

00;25;16;09 - 00;25;19;21

because sex is bonding,

there's no doubt about it.

00;25;19;21 - 00;25;23;01

And we feel it

with our definition of healthy sexuality.

00;25;23;02 - 00;25;25;01

It should only be the expression

00;25;25;01 - 00;25;28;18

of the emotional

and spiritual intimacy of the couple.

00;25;28;27 - 00;25;33;07

Both the husband and white wife

are correct, so stop arguing about it.

00;25;33;07 - 00;25;34;18

Be more intentional about it.

00;25;34;18 - 00;25;35;09

Plan for it,

00;25;35;09 - 00;25;39;14

move forward and separate out that there's

plenty of times throughout any given day

00;25;39;16 - 00;25;43;08

that you can touch each other

in non-sexual, nonexistent ways.

00;25;43;19 - 00;25;46;24

This has been a powerful conversation

00;25;46;24 - 00;25;50;02

today in my eyes about this desire.

00;25;51;09 - 00;25;53;24

This today's show has flown by

00;25;53;24 - 00;25;57;15

and I hope

it has been the same for our listeners.

00;25;57;15 - 00;26;01;01

How would you like to summarize

today's show as we leave our listeners?

00;26;01;01 - 00;26;05;13

Well, I always like to leave listeners

with a sense of hope that however damaging

00;26;05;20 - 00;26;09;07

sexuality has been in your relationship,

if you both

00;26;09;13 - 00;26;13;27

intentionally want to move forward

and have a vision for healthy touch

00;26;13;27 - 00;26;17;24

and healthy sexual touch down the road,

give yourself time.

00;26;17;24 - 00;26;20;10

And there's every reason to believe,

00;26;20;10 - 00;26;23;10

based on hundreds

and hundreds of examples, that

00;26;24;08 - 00;26;26;23

you can get this right

and you can move forward

00;26;26;23 - 00;26;29;28

and be the one flesh union

that God intends for you to be.

00;26;30;07 - 00;26;33;24

Thank you for joining us today

on the Faithful and True podcast.

00;26;33;29 - 00;26;38;21

This has been another installment

in the Seven Desires

00;26;38;21 - 00;26;43;04

series, featuring the late doctor,

Marc Lazar and myself.

00;26;43;04 - 00;26;47;00

As we discussed the desire to be touched.

00;26;47;08 - 00;26;52;05

Hope that this podcast

has been beneficial to you.

00;26;52;13 - 00;26;57;00

We also invite you to visit our website,

Faithful and true.com,

00;26;57;12 - 00;27;00;27

where you'll find many resources

that will be helpful to you,

00;27;01;09 - 00;27;04;17

as well as the online information

00;27;04;24 - 00;27;08;10

and opportunity to register

00;27;08;18 - 00;27;12;06

for our three day intensive workshops here

at Faithful and True.

00;27;12;20 - 00;27;16;16

In the meantime, we hope that

this coming week will be a week for you

00;27;16;25 - 00;27;19;29

that is filled with many

blessings and with great.