The Desire to be Known

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:23:02

Greg Miller

Another piece of this is and I can be safe, even if I'm never fully heard and understood. There can be this belief of desperation that I. I must be heard and understood. And yet there is this acknowledgment that there may be some things, some aspects of our life that will never be fully heard and understood by our spouse or maybe by no one else.

00:00:23:08 - 00:01:10:26

Greg Miller

And that's that space we talk about where God meets us. God's grace is enough. You know, the Scripture talks about the desires being met and by God, and this is one of those places where we trust that God hears and understands even the groanings of our soul, even the word wordless expressions. God is able to interpret and understand, and so we can have faith and trust that we are heard and understood, even if it's not in a human capacity.

00:01:10:28 - 00:01:47:02

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randy Everett, your co-host, and today we're going to feature Doctor Greg Miller together with Josh moon. Josh is a therapist on our staff, and Greg and Josh are getting together to discuss a from the seven desires being heard and understood. This is a great podcast that you're sure to enjoy. So here now is Doctor Greg Miller and Doctor doctor Josh moon and the Faithful and True podcast.

00:01:47:04 - 00:02:01:01

Greg Miller

Well, welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. Today I have with me Josh moon, one of the Faithful and true team, and we are glad that you are here. You've come in for one of the workshops. Typically he's in Chattanooga, Tennessee, so we are glad that you made the trip.

00:02:01:02 - 00:02:04:12

Josh Moon

Yeah. Thank you Greg, love being here. Glad to be here.

00:02:04:14 - 00:02:26:02

Greg Miller

And so today, what Josh and I are going to be talking about is this idea of being heard and understood as one of the seven desires. When Mark and Deb wrote their book, The Seven Desires, the language that they came up with was the desire to be heard and understood. But we also talk about this as the desire to be known or the desire to be seen.

00:02:26:02 - 00:02:47:09

Greg Miller

And it really is that desire that someone has an awareness of who I am and can be with me in that. And both of us work with couples, and we know the challenges. Sometimes in the couple ship when we desperately want to be heard and understood, and our perception is that our spouse isn't getting it, that they're not understanding this or hearing us.

00:02:47:11 - 00:03:09:08

Josh Moon

Yeah. In my experience, there's a lot of these places. I'm sure you see this through, Greg, where you're sitting there with a couple and you can feel such a desperation by each party for the other people to to get me right, to get me, to hear me, to understand me. And they end up fighting over who gets to be heard and understood.

00:03:09:11 - 00:03:28:07

Josh Moon

Right. And they fight over it, and they're trying to figure out, and they end up unable. Both walk out, unable to be heard and under feeling like they haven't been seen when both of them are just that's the thing they're desiring. And they can't seem to find a way there.

00:03:28:08 - 00:03:49:27

Greg Miller

Yeah. And part of it is understanding why this is so important. Part of the reason we want to be heard and understood is when we are heard and understood, it reminds us that we are not alone, that God created us to be in relationship. God created us for intimacy. And so if someone hears me and understands me, then I'm reminded in that moment that I'm not by myself.

00:03:49:29 - 00:04:06:12

Greg Miller

I think another reason we want it is it can be validating. You know, that someone here's an understands me, and so therefore they can validate my perspective. They can validate my reaction. A lot of us are just wanting that affirmation that what we did or how we responded make sense.

00:04:06:14 - 00:04:28:26

Josh Moon

And kind of the fundamental dynamic of all of these desires they all fill together. It's easy to make an argument for any one of these seven be like, well that's the one that's underlies all of them. When really it's this the complex of them. If you try to choose me without hearing or understanding me, I'm not going to feel it as being chosen.

00:04:28:28 - 00:04:48:21

Josh Moon

If you're going to try to bless me without hearing and understanding, I'm not going to feel blessed. And the same vice versa. If you hear and understand me and have no interest in including me. It's it's actually going to hurt, right? So, so there's a way in which all seven of these they interlock is how I think of it in my head.

00:04:48:26 - 00:04:57:25

Josh Moon

I have this picture of them is this interlocking web, and we're pulling out one of those strands. It's not all of them, but it's one of them. It's a really important one.

00:04:57:25 - 00:05:21:20

Greg Miller

Right? And one of the things about being heard and understood is there is a vulnerability that goes along with that. And so we are heard and understood best when we feel safe, because in the safety we can be heard and understood and vulnerable. But it's also true, is sometimes we simply want to be heard and understood about a detail.

00:05:21:23 - 00:05:41:10

Greg Miller

And I've seen a lot of couples have arguments over how something happened or what was said or the specifics of an experience, and they don't see it the same. You know, I often say how different it would be if our lives were video recorded and we could go back and play it back as if it's a court of law to see who said what or whatever.

00:05:41:15 - 00:05:56:10

Greg Miller

So sometimes it is about some detail that we want, we believe is important, and we want our spouse to understand that. But many times it's really deeper than that. It's I want to be seen and understood in that deepest place of vulnerability.

00:05:56:12 - 00:06:21:05

Josh Moon

Yeah. And that's where I think there's a lot to say on this. I want to start by recognizing that those of us who walk into these relationships and these dynamics as the the sinful part, but I, I wronged my wife in sexual addiction. I'm coming into a lot of these arguments, especially early in recovery. I'm coming in at a big deficit.

00:06:21:09 - 00:06:46:27

Josh Moon

Right. Because I did not trust you. I didn't trust my wife with me to here and understand I didn't tell her about. So this I was the one who was not at all vulnerable. Right? And so I come into these, and now I really want to be heard and understood, because I've got this backlog of 30 years of not being heard and understood because I didn't let you see it.

00:06:46:29 - 00:07:11:20

Josh Moon

Right. But now I'm seeing this, and now I'm seeing it's important. So I think it's important to go ahead and just put that out front. Some of us are some of us who are walking into this, especially early, early in recovery, our need, our demand, our desire to be heard and understood. That it can be a little frustrated because I hid myself.

00:07:11:22 - 00:07:32:06

Josh Moon

I was unwilling to take the risk, which meant there was a deficit. Right? And so it's not to say it's impossible to say. Sometimes we have to own it. Put it out there and say, okay, I'm walking in early on with a big deficit around this. I didn't trust you before, and now I'm going to try to demand it of you.

00:07:32:08 - 00:07:34:25

Josh Moon

It's going to be a little awkward.

00:07:34:27 - 00:07:57:25

Greg Miller

Well, what can be true is because of the broken trust, because of the betrayal. The spouse has no interest now or at this moment in hearing and understanding the other person. And that's why we need a group. We need a pool of people that can be open to hearing this and understanding us. Because in the if if we're doing recovery well in the early days of recovery, it is about self-discovery.

00:07:57:27 - 00:08:21:07

Greg Miller

It is about awakening and awareness. And we do need a safe place where we can bring that in. Someone can hear us and has a desire to understand us. And in the early days, it may not be our spouse. That's right. And because of the deception, it may be our spouse who needs to be heard and understood about the pain and the betrayal and the chaos that our choices have made.

00:08:21:13 - 00:08:38:22

Greg Miller

So what can be true is at some point early on, it is disproportionately in favor of the spouse being heard, while the the betrayer is the one that is listening and receiving, and also has opportunities to be heard and understood in a different context.

00:08:38:22 - 00:09:01:01

Josh Moon

That's right. And that's one of the things we have to undo in our recovery work is this message for those of us, in The Addiction, who have a life spent in that addiction is to imagine that these seven desires have to be fulfilled by my romantic partner. Otherwise it won't count. So if she doesn't choose me, then I'm not chosen.

00:09:01:03 - 00:09:20:20

Josh Moon

I hear this a lot. I'm sure we hear this a lot. It's got to be a woman will choose me. Then I will feel chosen. A woman affirming that. Then I'll be heard. If my wife isn't the one to hear me and understand me, then it doesn't count as being heard and understood. And that's one of the messages we have to undo that.

00:09:20:20 - 00:09:45:04

Josh Moon

That's just straight up a lie. It's a falsehood. It's just part of the addictive thinking and learning to rest myself in being heard and understood by a group of wise men is a big part of recovery. It counts as being heard. Understood, right? It doesn't have to be my spouse. And what's interesting, Greg, is I think you'll agree with me.

00:09:45:07 - 00:10:03:25

Josh Moon

It's risky. That's not just true early in recovery that actually gets to stretch out throughout my marriage is I can't put on my spouse the weight of the heard and understood, and she's the one that has to hear and understand me, or else I don't get hurt and understood.

00:10:03:26 - 00:10:28:08

Greg Miller

Yeah, absolutely. This is an ongoing reality where I acknowledge that I have these seven desires. I'm bringing the seven desires to my marriage. But the reality is we we have limits. We we cannot fully meet someone seven desires. And so therefore we are always looking for other relationships, communities, men in our lives that we can have these needs met.

00:10:28:11 - 00:10:49:26

Greg Miller

And I love what you've said is many times a guy will go to a group and really be heard and understood, but he dismisses it because it was a group of guys. But the reality is that is still something that is significant. And another piece of this is and I can be safe, even if I'm never fully heard and understood.

00:10:49:29 - 00:11:08:09

Greg Miller

There can be this belief of desperation that I, I must be heard and understood. And yet there is this acknowledgment that there may be some things, some aspects of our life that will never be fully heard and understood by our spouse, or maybe by no one else. And that's that space we talk about where God meets us.

00:11:08:09 - 00:11:35:18

Greg Miller

God's grace is enough. You know, the Scripture talks about the desires being met by God. And this is one of those places where we trust that God hears and understands even the groanings of our soul, even the word wordless expressions. God is able to interpret and understand, and so we can have faith and trust that we are heard and understood, even if it's not in a human capacity.

00:11:35:24 - 00:12:01:05

Josh Moon

Yeah, there's a beautiful little passage in Psalm 27 where he says, though my father and my mother reject me, the Lord will take me in or has taken me in. And it's this the mother and father are the ones above all. When you're growing up as a kid, you. They're all these seven desires, but heard and understood, like the parents are the first ones.

00:12:01:07 - 00:12:17:14

Josh Moon

So in this song, you have actually this explicit, even if they if they don't get me, they don't hear and understand even my primary relationships, the ones I'm depending on most. For that there is still a place I have. The Lord will take me in.

00:12:17:15 - 00:12:38:24

Greg Miller

Yeah, there's a beauty when children are young and learning to speak, how parents and grandparents just cling to every word. You know? We're trying to teach them words. We want them to repeat what we say. But then when we have that moment where we see that they truly understand, so they're referring to something accurately with their words, we celebrate that.

00:12:38:24 - 00:13:10:29

Greg Miller

And that's really what we are looking for, is that someone has the capacity to hear what it is that we are saying, and then understand what we are revealing about ourselves. And so much of the understanding is about some sort of self-revelation. We're being transparent, we're wanting to be validated in something, and there is a complexity that comes with that, and recognizing that it takes effort and intentionality to move towards being understood, but also understanding somebody else.

00:13:11:00 - 00:13:30:08

Josh Moon

That's right. Because there's the two parts to it, right? So to be heard and understood, it's the passive voice. I need somebody else to participate in that. But in order for you to hear me and understand me, that requires a lot of me to I have to be able to be present with myself and offer myself to you.

00:13:30:14 - 00:13:53:02

Josh Moon

There's no way for you to hear and understand me by osmosis. And so this dynamic, there's two sides to it. And I'd love to talk about what gets in the way on both sides. Right. What are the things that get in the way of being heard and understood in our primary relationships with our parents, with our children, with our friends?

00:13:53:04 - 00:14:00:08

Josh Moon

Like all these relationships stretching across what gets in the way on both sides of being heard and understood? Yeah.

00:14:00:11 - 00:14:20:22

Greg Miller

Well, one thing I would start with is our own lack of self-awareness that if I'm not attuned to myself, if I'm not self-aware, then I may actually be confused about what I want to be heard and understood about. You know, I may actually stop at some surface issue believing this is what I need to be heard and understood about.

00:14:20:23 - 00:14:48:23

Greg Miller

And that's that kind of argument that couples can have about the details of a day or an experience. But that's really kind of just a stopping place. That's not the deeper issue of this is what I need to be heard and understood about. And so I think part of the work that we have to do is that work of self-awareness, so that when I'm bringing that out, I'm actually naming that thing that is important to me, that is foundational for me to be heard and understood.

00:14:48:25 - 00:15:15:10

Josh Moon

And Greg, that makes me, it puts into my head how easy it is and all of these desires, and this one included, to blame, to go to this place. I'm going to blame you for not hearing and understanding me. And it's easy to do that. It's a lot harder to say, okay, maybe I don't quite understand why I need to be heard and understood about this particular detail.

00:15:15:11 - 00:15:16:21

Josh Moon

Right?

00:15:16:23 - 00:15:40:17

Greg Miller

Why is this so important to me? What's what's the meaning? You know, if we were talking about Virginia satire in the, iceberg, one of the levels of the iceberg is the meanings, messages, core beliefs, perceptions level. And if we don't get down to that level and really become honest about this is what's getting triggered in me. This is the meaning that I'm making of this and share that with our spouse.

00:15:40:22 - 00:15:45:15

Greg Miller

Then we may actually not be talking about the issue that needs to be discussed.

00:15:45:17 - 00:16:05:29

Josh Moon

So one of the that first thing that gets in the way of even offering is that I don't know yet that self-discovery and the patients that that and the work that that can take. Otherwise, I walk in and I demand to be heard and understood. And it can be a very frustrating experience because you won't hear and understand me if I can't offer.

00:16:06:00 - 00:16:22:07

Greg Miller

Right. And what can be confusing is I'm actually hearing and understanding what you're saying. But for you, it's not the issue. And so you leave dissatisfied. Even though our partner, whoever, heard what we were trying to be heard and understood about it wasn't what was significant to us.

00:16:22:08 - 00:16:49:24

Josh Moon

Yeah. I had some time ago, there was an argument that became a big deal for a couple around who took the last of the popcorn, who took the last of the pot, and they were trying to correct each other, of who took the last of the popcorn, and it was getting heated, and it was this bit and being able to come like, why does that feel important?

00:16:49:26 - 00:17:05:19

Josh Moon

What is it that you need to be heard? Why does I and being able to walk back in and say, wait, wait, wait wait, wait, it's my job to understand me and then I can offer it. But if I haven't done that work first, it's going to get in the way, right?

00:17:05:22 - 00:17:31:14

Greg Miller

And one one thing that can be true is we will never fully understand ourselves. We are our own mystery, and that's why it takes both our own self-awareness, but also community speaking into our lives to create a fuller picture. If if I'm just depending upon community speaking into my life, that's a limited perspective. But if also I'm just dependent upon my own self-revelation and awareness.

00:17:31:15 - 00:17:50:21

Greg Miller

Me yeah, that's a limited perspective, but it's that combination. But even with both of those, there is an a part of us that is mysterious to even ourselves. And so we begin with the recognition that I may never fully be heard and understood because I cannot fully understand myself.

00:17:50:23 - 00:18:14:06

Josh Moon

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're a mystery to ourselves. And then we can't get upset at others for recognizing that fact, right? Yeah. About us. But again, that's part of what I love, Greg, about how we walk into all of these desires of faithful and true, not as demands upon one another, but is this invitation to live in a particular way with me.

00:18:14:12 - 00:18:43:14

Josh Moon

And I will always be stumbling around in it, right? I will always be. And just the opportunity then, for relationships actually to need grace woven into the very fabric at every point. Because I'm always going to miss here and misunderstand sometimes. Right. And that's okay. That's not actually in the way of intimacy, which is that invitation. Well, let's live in a way that we're always striving towards, right.

00:18:43:17 - 00:18:44:14

Josh Moon

This dynamic.

00:18:44:14 - 00:18:50:03

Greg Miller

Well, what's true is I can be connected to my partner in the mystery.

00:18:50:06 - 00:18:51:03

Josh Moon

Yes, exactly.

00:18:51:05 - 00:18:58:10

Greg Miller

That there can still be intimacy, in the uncertainty, in the lack of understanding. We can still have a sense of connection.

00:18:58:12 - 00:19:22:00

Josh Moon

That's right. Because we're together doing the work of hearing and understanding, which is true in a group setting in men's groups, in the women's groups were committing to do this work together to here and understand. And I think that's where the magic of being heard and understood really happens. It's not. Oh, now you get every aspect of everything about my life.

00:19:22:02 - 00:19:42:17

Josh Moon

There's no one outside of our Lord. There's no one who's going to be able to say, yeah, I get the whole thing. I understand every aspect of it because we don't even. But that's not what we're after. We're after this invitation to a way of life and pursuing it together. And we find that in groups. And that's what deep friendships have.

00:19:42:20 - 00:19:43:29

Josh Moon

00:19:44:02 - 00:19:49:06

Greg Miller

So what would you say is another obstacle or challenge to being heard and understood?

00:19:49:08 - 00:20:15:07

Josh Moon

Yeah, I would say another one is just straight up fear. Straight up fear. Those defenders that I always think of them as running up the back of my neck. Right. And I kind of feel the hairs and those defenders, it makes it very hard. If I pull up the gate and have a big moat there, and I'm standing on the walls and about to shoot air, you come step closer, I will fire.

00:20:15:09 - 00:20:36:18

Josh Moon

It's going to be very hard for you to feel heard and understood by me in that posture. And it's hard for me to get you to hear and understand me. So I think one of the great things, one of the great obstacles is the fears that we carry. Right? And if I'm afraid and if I am feeling defensive, it's going to be really hard.

00:20:36:18 - 00:20:52:21

Josh Moon

Both the offering and the receiving of that heard and understood dynamic. And so one of the things we have to work on is what are you afraid of? What's the fear? Let me hear and understand that. Right, right. Let me hear and understand that. Shifting the battlefield.

00:20:52:23 - 00:21:14:12

Greg Miller

Any of the resisters. So like fear is one of them. I think anger is one of them. That if I'm so angry at you that I'm bringing this energy toward you, it makes perfect sense. I'm not going to be able to hear and understand. So there can be postures, feelings that even entering into the space, there's not openness.

00:21:14:12 - 00:21:28:24

Greg Miller

And so one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, if someone is wanting to be heard and understood, is, am I at a place of being open to hearing and understanding? And if not, what do I need? Or what would be helpful for me to get to that place?

00:21:28:29 - 00:21:56:22

Josh Moon

Yeah, and it's especially relevant, in the early years of recovery, a wife often needs her husband to hear her anger. Be able to hear and understand her anger. But in order for that to work, there needs to be another outlet for that anger. For if I'm allowed to use this illustration I think of it like the head off the beer, like you need to get the head off the beer.

00:21:56:24 - 00:22:37:06

Josh Moon

For it to be dry, I need somewhere else where I can have people who hear me in the anger with all of the emotion of that anger there. And they don't have to be, they don't have to feel under attack. They're not being attacked. Right. And so part of that dynamic is learning it is going to be important I think for every husband who's betrayed their wife to learn how to be present with her and hear and understand her anger, which is not the same thing as so therefore tirades are going to be the norm, and you should be expected to be able to sit calmly and receive all the anger, right?

00:22:37:09 - 00:22:59:28

Josh Moon

That's not the way God built our bodies. Somebody starts yelling at you. Your heart rate goes up, the blood capillaries expand. Cortisol starts going right. That's just kind of the way God created our bodies to respond to threats. And that makes it hard to hear and understand. So there's this dynamic. Sometimes I can sit there and you are really angry.

00:22:59:28 - 00:23:12:24

Josh Moon

And that's going to be so important. And there are times where actually we need to go blow the head off the anger somewhere else so that you can be present and hear and understand my anger.

00:23:12:26 - 00:23:33:10

Greg Miller

Right? Absolutely. I would say another thing that can be a barrier is shame. I know in the early days of my recovery, I was just so consumed with shame that I did not have the capacity to hear and understand Beth and what she was experiencing. And because as soon as she started speaking, my shame got triggered. And then I just went inside.

00:23:33:10 - 00:23:57:00

Greg Miller

I isolated, even though I was still in the room with her. I pulled so far inward I wasn't able to be with her in that. And so one of the best gifts that I gave Beth was my willingness to work on my shame so that I could show up in a posture, be more of a wise man. I wasn't fully a wise man, but enough of a wise man to be able to hear what it was that she was saying.

00:23:57:06 - 00:24:00:29

Greg Miller

But it took my work to go after the shame.

00:24:01:01 - 00:24:22:08

Josh Moon

Which has that same dynamic of my body like shame we carry in our bodies too. It has bodily results. And then my body starts getting in the way. But it's because my body is doing what it's supposed to do. When I feel shame, my body is doing what it's supposed to do. When I feel anger, when I feel, a threat.

00:24:22:10 - 00:24:40:12

Josh Moon

And so our bodies, it can feel like it's our body that gets in the way. It's not our body that gets in the way. Our body is doing what it's supposed to do. We just need to steward our body somewhere else. In order to come back again it's this. It's an invitation to a way of life together.

00:24:40:14 - 00:25:04:20

Josh Moon

I need to go chop some wood. Right, so that I can. I need to go make a call with some of my guys and process some of this shame so that I can come back in a my wife have once had a just a brilliant little insight. Shame was a really hard thing for me in our first months, and it got in the way so often.

00:25:04:22 - 00:25:22:00

Josh Moon

And she said, it feels a little bit like you're not intending to. She's very kind, right? Very generous and gracious. Like, I know you're not intending to, but it feels kind of like shame is being used as a trump card. The moment I get angry, shame comes in. And so I can't ever get it. So it shortcuts it.

00:25:22:00 - 00:25:42:03

Josh Moon

So now I'm yelling at a, a heart injured puppy or you know like I'm getting a small and it was a defense but it's not this place. Oh no I need to feel shame about my shame. It's okay. I actually need to do some work on that shame so that I can come back and let my wife be angry at it, right?

00:25:42:04 - 00:26:01:29

Greg Miller

Absolutely. Well, and one of the principles that I had, I went to a therapy group for years early in my recovery, and my reoccurring thought was I practice in my group so that I can come home and show up in a a wiser way. So I shed shame in my group so that I can be wiser and have less shame.

00:26:01:29 - 00:26:28:06

Greg Miller

With Beth, I practice listening and and not becoming defensive so that I can bring that into my relationship with Beth. And again, that's part of the power of the community. Is that in an unfiltered, unhealthy, survivor man way, I try to be heard and understood in group so that then I can bring my wiser self back to my relationships that are intimate and personal.

00:26:28:09 - 00:26:43:28

Greg Miller

And practice being a wiser self there. Is there anything else that you're aware of? Because we are running out of time. So is there anything else that you're aware of that you would say, this is something that creates an inability to be heard and understood.

00:26:44:00 - 00:26:52:17

Josh Moon

Yeah, I think a lot of couples find a barrier to it in,

00:26:52:19 - 00:26:56:14

Josh Moon

In the fighting over who gets to be heard. Understood.

00:26:56:15 - 00:27:02:09

Greg Miller

Right. The way I would say it is, when there is a competition to be heard and understood.

00:27:02:10 - 00:27:03:19

Josh Moon

Right? When it feels like.

00:27:03:20 - 00:27:05:02

Greg Miller

Nobody gets hurt and.

00:27:05:02 - 00:27:27:11

Josh Moon

Understood, if it feels like a competition, it's time to step away. It's just time to step away. Right. Because nobody will be heard. Understood. And sometimes that's anger coming up. That's sometimes that's fear and defensiveness. Sometimes it's there's a lot on the line. Should we move. Should we not move. We have to actually make a decision. Not making a decision becomes a decision.

00:27:27:13 - 00:27:54:19

Josh Moon

And there it gets to be this freighted conversation. And then it feels like if I let you go, then I don't get my reasons in. And so I need to get that. So it becomes this competition. I need to get all the pros over here. And it can be just so disheartening then. So even about something like moving or something, all these what color should we paint the living room or what car should we buy?

00:27:54:19 - 00:28:15:09

Josh Moon

Or what do we do with our children or whatever these dynamics are? It can start to feel like a competition rather than a team, right? Rather than this invitation to be heard and understood, because there's some decision that has to be made. And we start to imagine that that actually gets to take priority over our being a team together.

00:28:15:10 - 00:28:32:27

Josh Moon

Right? In a marriage. But again, that's also why we have groups. I can bring those decisions to other men. We shouldn't be making those decisions in isolation even as a couple in isolation. Some decisions, how I paint the living room that would.

00:28:32:29 - 00:28:34:15

Greg Miller

Bring everybody in.

00:28:34:17 - 00:28:53:09

Josh Moon

But a lot of times, whether I should move or not. These big, some of these big. How do I help my teenage kids walk faithfully, be heard? How do I hear them when they're slamming doors down the hallway? How do I some of these. It's shouldn't just be me and my spouse. It should be a community dynamic.

00:28:53:10 - 00:29:14:09

Greg Miller

Yeah. You know, one of the things that along this competition is as soon as it becomes a debate, as soon as there's case building, as soon as it becomes super reasonable, that's a good indication we're not going to be heard and understood. And one of the principles I'm aware of within myself is the more words I use, the less likely I'm going to be heard and understood.

00:29:14:13 - 00:29:23:22

Greg Miller

Because typically there's something basic, simple that we can express that we want to be heard and understood about. But again, that's some of the work that we have to do.

00:29:23:24 - 00:29:43:29

Josh Moon

Yeah. I want to throw in one more of 30s we do. Some of us were also never heard and understood growing up. Just weren't I was often I'm grateful for that. I know some who are almost never they were met with abuse. They were met with go away. They were met with though I'm busy. They were met with.

00:29:44:05 - 00:30:04:14

Josh Moon

I'm on my phone. They were like and. And if that's part of your story, it's going to be hard to know how to walk into this desire. And so we start with, well, let's start there. Right. Let me hear you and understand what it was like not to be heard, understood.

00:30:04:17 - 00:30:23:09

Greg Miller

Or let me hear and understand how difficult this is for you, or how unfamiliar this is for you. Yeah. Okay. Well, Josh, thanks for coming and being here and for our listeners. Thanks for giving us of your time. And if you are interested in what we do here at Faithful and True, you can go to our website, Faithful and True.

00:30:23:10 - 00:30:41:17

Greg Miller

Com. All of our resources, our opportunities are listed there. We do workshops, we have groups and we also do individual counseling. So if there's something that faithful and true would be helpful with, just let us know. And again, thanks for being a part of the Faithful and True podcast.

00:30:41:19 - 00:31:22:12

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. You've been listening to Doctor Greg Miller and Josh moon discussing the one of the seven desires to be heard and understood. Great series, a great collection of of these desires that was written a number of years ago by doctor Mark Glaser and his wife, Debbie. We hope you've enjoyed today's podcast, and we hope that you'll visit our website, Faithful and true.com, where you'll find lots of resources and useful information to help you with your healing journey.

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:30:08

Randy Evert

In the meantime, we hope that this coming week for you will be a week that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.