The Desire to be Included

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;05

Mark Laaser

When we are dealing with the population we are dealing with, where the husband has been committing some form of infidelity, whether it's, you know, looking at internet pornography, masturbating or, you know, having affairs or whatever it is. He has developed a secret life. So he's generally not talking about this. He's not sharing this with his wife. He's, living also what we sometimes referred to as the double life.

00;00;26;08 - 00;00;46;02

Mark Laaser

The point of all of this is that if marriage is to be a one flesh union, to be a companionship, it's to be a culture of two. All the things we've talked about before on this show, we should include our spouse in our life. And, part of what we're teaching them in here is to get honest, to start telling the truth.

00;00;46;02 - 00;01;19;00

Mark Laaser

And sometimes they need to realize that all the lies they've told is a way of excluding their wife. Their wife does not feel like, they know them really, and that kind of thing. So when when we become truth tellers, we start including.

00;01;19;02 - 00;01;45;27

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True Podcast. I'm Randi Everett, your co-host. And today we're going to feature a legacy presentation featuring doctor Mark Lazar. This is the final installment of the Seven Desires series, and this will be the desire to be included. Here now is doctor Mark Lazar and the Faithful and True podcast.

00;01;45;29 - 00;01;54;20

Mark Laaser

We're completing our series on the seven Desires of the heart and today. Number seven, the desire to be included.

00;01;54;23 - 00;02;11;05

Randy Evert

This series has gone quickly. I when we first when you first had this idea, I loved the idea. Listeners loved the idea. And I thought, well, good. This will give us really relevant, subject matter for the next seven weeks. And we blinked. And here we are on show seven.

00;02;11;06 - 00;02;20;09

Mark Laaser

Here we are on show seven. So we'll have a few things to say about the desire to be included. And then maybe toward the end of the show today, we'll do a little wrap up of all seven.

00;02;20;13 - 00;02;22;23

Randy Evert

I think that would be a great way to finish the series.

00;02;22;29 - 00;02;50;13

Mark Laaser

All right, so the desire to be included, the way I always introduce this one is just to ask the audience or the listeners to think about times in their life when they may have felt left out, or the general feeling that they did not belong. That they just, were experiencing some loneliness or some exclusion, meaning that there's some activity.

00;02;50;13 - 00;03;01;09

Mark Laaser

Organization, club, lunch table, fraternity, sorority, that you wanted to be in but you didn't get invited to be a part of, and you felt left out.

00;03;01;10 - 00;03;27;29

Randy Evert

Well, I think that that's one of those common emotions that most people experience, especially during, let's say, their junior high in high school years, because the cliques or the popular kids, whatever. I mean, it becomes quite apparent as you walk the halls of a junior high or high school and you see especially maybe a new kid to the school who hasn't, who doesn't have a history with the other kids his age.

00;03;28;02 - 00;03;36;19

Randy Evert

You know, you observe these groups, they all seem to be so happy with each other that I it seems almost natural that this desire would come out well.

00;03;36;20 - 00;04;11;22

Mark Laaser

Sure. And, you're kind of, triggering me a little bit. It's not the trigger of the week, by the way. But you're triggering me that any any of us who've had to move, I think we go through a pretty significant season of life where if we're moving into an already established system, like a school or a church or something like that, and the clicks, if you want to use that term, the groups have been established and you're moving in and you don't necessarily feel a part of that, then you can wind up feeling left out.

00;04;11;22 - 00;04;24;05

Mark Laaser

I know that was true for me a couple of different times in my early life when I had to move and, just didn't feel like a, a part of, you know, the, the fellowships that had been established in some cases since kindergarten.

00;04;24;06 - 00;04;49;22

Randy Evert

Well, I've been struck by that dynamic before because I've got two young nephews, my my brother in law and his wife, great family, but he has a high level executive job in which they have traveled internationally. So they have lived everywhere from Madison, Wisconsin, to Chicago, Illinois to Switzerland to now in Singapore. And his children are at a very young age.

00;04;49;27 - 00;05;15;04

Randy Evert

They're now like seven and 12. Well, not only have they had to be uprooted each time, but on an international scale, they're introduced to speaking a new language. You're not only meeting new friends, but in a lot of cases, you know, your new friends don't speak English. So it's been interesting in their case. But then you also think of the military families in which being transferred is an ongoing process.

00;05;15;08 - 00;05;29;12

Randy Evert

You know, how do you get uprooted? How do you start over each time? And as much as kids may try or people may try to maintain their established relationships with friends, it gets a difficult.

00;05;29;17 - 00;05;47;19

Mark Laaser

Well, it is difficult. It's interesting today with all of our social connections through, electronics and media and so forth. You know, I know there there are a lot of people who do move all the time, and they do try to maintain old relationships, but it's never quite the same as being face to face with people.

00;05;47;21 - 00;06;13;13

Mark Laaser

I think most of us have stories. I think that's one of the things I challenge the listeners to think about. Do you have a story of a move or some transition in your life, or you went through adolescence and something about you changed and it was not quite as acceptable, or so you thought. You started getting teased or you started to get ostracized, or even our story from last week.

00;06;13;15 - 00;06;34;07

Mark Laaser

Is a story of, you know, an existing group of friendships that went through a kind of a life transition with one of them, and then the other one didn't feel like, he was included in that. So, I think that that story was a great story that you read, and it really reflects kind of both of the desires to be chosen and to be included.

00;06;34;09 - 00;06;36;10

Mark Laaser

They're they're highly related to each other.

00;06;36;11 - 00;07;05;17

Randy Evert

Right. The the thing that I like, when you invite the listeners to pause the podcast, because we have a lot of groups that listen to us on a regular basis. This is one of those desires that if you were to pause the show or when we go to break, pause the show and go around the table, go around the room and invite the members of your group to reflect on a time where they struggled with that desire to be included.

00;07;05;18 - 00;07;31;04

Mark Laaser

That's right. We could think of lots and lots of examples. I think sometimes even birth order within a family. Or large family systems. I was talking to a person earlier today who came from a large family of about ten, and he felt that at some level he was left out as some of the family activities.

00;07;31;04 - 00;07;55;11

Mark Laaser

His older brothers got to do certain things, in this case on the farm, and he never did. You know, by the time he got to the age where he could have participated. Dad was pretty burned out with farming and sold the farm. So they moved to town, so to speak. And you never got to do some of the stuff that his brothers got to do drive the tractors, help with the harvest and do all that.

00;07;55;12 - 00;08;25;01

Mark Laaser

And, you know, that's probably, you know, a good example of just through events that no one could really criticize. You know, maybe the the agricultural downturn economically was such that dad made an intelligent choice to get out of farming and they moved into town. But now he's a farm kid. And I don't know if you've ever lived in a small town as I have, but there's always that distinction between the, town kids and the and the farm kids.

00;08;25;01 - 00;08;49;28

Mark Laaser

And, so he was a farm kid, and he had that group of friends. Then by high school, he moves into town. What group of friends does he now belong to? Right. So we all have stories, I think, sitting around and talking about some of the stories. And one of the things I've always believed in is that when you introduce a topic or a theme here, people's memories will come to them.

00;08;49;28 - 00;09;02;15

Mark Laaser

In other words, whatever God would like to deal with you about, he will allow you to remember. At some point. Sometimes I hate that, but at other times, I know it's really one of the things that helps us grow.

00;09;02;16 - 00;09;30;00

Randy Evert

Quite, quite helpful. You know, when you mentioned large families, the the common theme that seems to play itself out is the older kids, because of their ages, are going to be given privileges that the younger kids can't. Everything from the younger kids having envy about staying up late or staying out late and that type of thing. So that's where you see that desire to be included, you know, really comes into play.

00;09;30;01 - 00;09;35;04

Randy Evert

I wish I were, you know, why can't I stay up late? You know. Right.

00;09;35;07 - 00;09;59;05

Mark Laaser

Yeah. My wife, Debbie, who is a twin, talks about, the challenge. It was even in grade school. Who were her friends and who were her sister? Barb's friends, or were they all the same friends? And that inevitably led to a feelings about. Well, that's Barb's friend, and that's my friend. Or Barb stole my friend or yours?

00;09;59;05 - 00;10;01;12

Randy Evert

Mine and ours, as far as friends are concerned.

00;10;01;13 - 00;10;23;25

Mark Laaser

Yours. Mine and ours. And, you know, their parents. My in-laws did a wonderful job trying to be as inclusive as they could in all situations. But inevitably, I think this desire is one that gets tramped on just through some of the normal transitions of life or through some of the some of the genetics that we have that we just don't feel like we fit in.

00;10;23;27 - 00;10;53;26

Mark Laaser

Or whatever it is. Yeah. And, you were challenging me to think about how this desire to be included affects couple ships. And I think one obvious thing comes to mind, and that is that when we are dealing with the population, we are dealing with where the husband has been committing some form of infidelity, whether it's, you know, looking at internet pornography, masturbating or, you know, having affairs or whatever it is, he has developed a secret life.

00;10;54;00 - 00;11;18;13

Mark Laaser

So he's generally not talking about this. He's not sharing this with his wife. He's, living also what we sometimes referred to as the double life. The point of all of this is that, if, marriage is to be a one flesh union, to be a companionship, it's to be a culture of two. All the things we've talked about before on this show, we should include our spouse in our life.

00;11;18;13 - 00;11;38;09

Mark Laaser

And, part of what we're teaching them in here is to get honest, to start telling the truth. And sometimes they need to realize that all the lies they've told is a way of excluding their wife. Their wife does not feel like, they know them really, and that kind of thing. So when when we become truth tellers, we start including.

00;11;38;14 - 00;11;43;12

Mark Laaser

And that's an important form of being included.

00;11;43;13 - 00;12;08;28

Randy Evert

Well, with all the men listening to this program, you know, to follow that, that thought or that principle, you know, you it sounds like you would need to also make some compromises towards those events or activities that your wife enjoys so that the inclusion, you know, it's one thing for you to be making plans and saying, oh, it's important for me to invite my wife to this.

00;12;08;29 - 00;12;17;24

Randy Evert

But at the same time, I think some men need to probably display some openness to be doing activities that she would enjoy.

00;12;17;26 - 00;12;55;14

Mark Laaser

Well, at least part of the time. I mean, I think it's, it's something that we also say that if a man has hobbies, pastimes that he enjoys doing, it's okay for him to be doing that some of the time. But as long as there are activities that the couple does together and, okay, so even though you have your own activities, your, your pastimes, your hobbies or whatever you do by yourself or with a group of male friends, you at least include your wife in that by telling her about it, getting, her agreement that it's okay for you to go and spend the weekend in northern Minnesota fishing or, I know you

00;12;55;16 - 00;13;01;19

Mark Laaser

go on a golf outing, every fall or winter, and and I'm sure Cindy is on board with that.

00;13;01;21 - 00;13;24;05

Randy Evert

Extremely. And a lot of that is based in back to what you said, truth telling, truth telling. Because if you're truthful about it, in my particular case, we're about to celebrate our 30th year of doing this event with the same group of guys. She knows that this group of guys are the safest group of of full blooded American guys on the face of the earth.

00;13;24;07 - 00;13;47;11

Randy Evert

And so when I am leaving for that event, she has no worries because there's confidence, there's open communication about it, there's extreme honesty. And usually, you know, it's followed up by a series of photographs from our golf weekend, you know, that kind of thing. So you, you, you kind of see the, the proof is, is in the photographs and, it's a good time.

00;13;47;18 - 00;14;11;14

Mark Laaser

Well, you know, I didn't mean to, you know, just get you to distracted with your own personal example. But I do think it's important that there can be times when, when a husband goes off and does things with his friends. Now, one of the issues we do face here are those friends safe, you know, in, in historically, you know, with a guy recovering from sexual addiction, some he he may need to take a look at some of his friendships.

00;14;11;16 - 00;14;32;24

Mark Laaser

And, and what we're also saying is that, you know, couples need to have their own activities that only they do. It's part of that culture to that, you know, these are things that we enjoy doing. These are our inside jokes, our inside knowledge of each other and that kind of thing. So that, by the way, is where we overlap with this one in terms of being chosen.

00;14;32;24 - 00;14;41;21

Mark Laaser

There are times when we choose only our spouse to do some things, and there are times when we choose others to be, you know, part of our couple's fellowship or our individual fellowship.

00;14;41;22 - 00;14;48;13

Randy Evert

Well, in my case, my my event is my seven friends are all monks, so I so.

00;14;48;15 - 00;14;51;23

Mark Laaser

They they all smart. Alex. Like you too. Is that true?

00;14;51;26 - 00;14;55;02

Randy Evert

Well, we do have that in common. You know, they're smart aleck monks.

00;14;55;05 - 00;14;58;09

Mark Laaser

Some of the monks that I've had in treatment, I wouldn't necessarily trust them.

00;14;58;14 - 00;15;00;06

Randy Evert

Well, they weren't safe. Oh.

00;15;00;08 - 00;15;00;28

Mark Laaser

So anyway.

00;15;01;01 - 00;15;02;25

Randy Evert

I was. I was unaware of that history.

00;15;02;26 - 00;15;06;02

Mark Laaser

I have a really skewed population.

00;15;06;05 - 00;15;10;01

Randy Evert

I'm going to invite us to move on from there. I was I was trying to say.

00;15;10;03 - 00;15;29;25

Mark Laaser

Sir, we probably should. All right, well, one of the things to talk about here is, is with any of the desires is, given that given the fact that we desire to be included, what have we done historically to be included? And one of our theme verses here, in our ministry is the verse from Romans chapter 12, verse two.

00;15;29;28 - 00;15;51;12

Mark Laaser

Don't conform to the ways of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. This verse really comes into play here because how many of us have ever agreed to something gone along with something, started smoking, started drinking. Started doing certain levels of conversation. Wearing certain kinds of clothes. Gone along with the crowd, so to speak.

00;15;51;12 - 00;16;05;22

Mark Laaser

In order to what be included. How many people? Have said yes when they mean no. And so forth, so that they can be part of a group that they, they think they absolutely need to be a part.

00;16;05;22 - 00;16;14;21

Randy Evert

Of, which led to the origin of the parental quote. If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do that to I think.

00;16;14;24 - 00;16;33;18

Mark Laaser

I'm sure that's so helpful at the time to whatever teenager is listening to it. But I think it's a better conversation to say, you know, what is it like when you don't feel included? What is it like when you don't feel like people are inviting you to do stuff? What does it feel like when you sense that you don't have any friends?

00;16;33;20 - 00;17;04;23

Mark Laaser

And you know, what links are you willing to go to in order to to feel included? I think in our field, so many early sexual decisions were made by so many people so that they would feel included. Peer pressure, peer pressure, the culture. I think, strangely enough. We heard a story the other day about, a group of friends who, just felt like one of their friends was the only virgin in the crowd, and they just were convinced that she needed to lose her virginity.

00;17;04;23 - 00;17;24;27

Mark Laaser

So they set up a situation in which she would. And so she consented to it. Why? So that she would belong to the group? And, how many of us have have memories of stuff that we really did not want to do or really did not agree with, but we went ahead and did it anyway. That's conforming to the ways of the world.

00;17;24;27 - 00;17;43;23

Mark Laaser

And, I think spiritually we need to remember that we are we are called and we are a time set apart, which is interesting. And we'll get back to, you know, where we need to go with this desire here in just a minute. But this is one of those moments when I think it might be good to pause the recording.

00;17;43;23 - 00;17;56;24

Mark Laaser

If you're listening to this as a group and just have a conversation. Perhaps even on some things that you've you've kept inside yourself for a long time. Things that you you feel like you said yes to that, that you're you're really still guilty and shameful about.

00;17;56;25 - 00;18;17;18

Randy Evert

Yeah. I was about to say some of these are shameful events. Right. And, there's probably something to be gained by letting that out, by sharing that, by, you know, just as you see, when men walk in here with guilt and shame and apprehension, you know, and the moment that they are in the room with other men.

00;18;17;20 - 00;18;31;26

Randy Evert

They find out that they're not alone and that they have experienced a lot of the similar shameful experiences. Yeah. There's there seems to be kind of a redeeming, freeing factor when you when you do that.

00;18;31;28 - 00;18;54;10

Mark Laaser

Now, there's a part that I think about this desire that can be, can be on the human side if we allow it to be. One of the, the things that I notice is, we want to belong. So let's say we live in Minneapolis and we have a football team here, otherwise known as the Minnesota Vikings, and we sometimes refer to them as the Tribe of Vikings.

00;18;54;13 - 00;19;18;20

Mark Laaser

So we want to belong to the general culture of the tribe of Vikings. So what do some Minnesotans do on a Sunday afternoon when they go to the football game, they put on their favorite jersey of their favorite player. And if you see shots in the stands, you see some ridiculous looking Viking helmets, which evidently is not historically accurate.

00;19;18;21 - 00;19;40;07

Mark Laaser

No Viking ever wore a helmet with horns on it, but that's kind of part of the symbol of our team. So there are guys in ridiculous Viking helmets with purple and gold faces and all kind of stuff. What? What are they doing there? Wanting to belong to some larger group now where I, you know, and then we get we we trash talk, you know, I'm I'm a Viking.

00;19;40;07 - 00;19;58;12

Mark Laaser

You're a bear fan. You're, you know, here in Minnesota, we have the proverbial conflict with the cheese heads over in Wisconsin, they belong to the the Packer backers, and we belong to the tribe of Vikings. And, you know, as long as we keep it at a fun level, that's okay. But there are people who take this way too seriously.

00;19;58;15 - 00;20;18;14

Mark Laaser

One of the places I think this gets out of control is when we think we belong to the one right church. The denomination. I think over the years I was talking about this with one of my favorite clients this morning, who happens to be part of a religious order. And, she was saying that, we were reminiscing about the 1950s.

00;20;18;16 - 00;20;47;13

Mark Laaser

When she was told there was no way that she was ever to date a, a Protestant. And I was told there was no way that I was ever to date a Catholic. We have these age old prejudices. I think that the desire to be included when we do feel included, and we do feel like we're included in perhaps the right group, then we start getting prejudiced or angry or judgmental against people who are not part of our group.

00;20;47;13 - 00;20;56;20

Mark Laaser

And that's when we start ostracizing, being critical where we trash talk and all that kind of stuff. You were doing some trash talking this week about Iowa State, you see.

00;20;56;22 - 00;21;21;28

Randy Evert

Well, you're you're just a little sensitive because I was state defeated, your alma mater, the University of Iowa on Saturday in there, you know, say. Classic rivalry game. And and it came down to the last four seconds and, you know. Iowa State pulled it out on a field goal. And my son is a junior at Iowa State.

00;21;22;00 - 00;21;29;27

Randy Evert

So we have a legion to Iowa State. I didn't attend there myself. But we did enjoy watching the victory.

00;21;29;29 - 00;21;40;15

Mark Laaser

Yes, I know, and I'm married to an Iowa State graduate and my oldest child, our daughter Sarah is and Iowa State graduate. And we have a mixed marriage. Debbie. And, you know.

00;21;40;16 - 00;21;41;27

Randy Evert

We're.

00;21;41;29 - 00;21;45;23

Mark Laaser

Alumni of the two state schools, you know, so what can you do?

00;21;45;24 - 00;21;49;19

Randy Evert

That alone is part of the miracle of your 40 years together. I mean, that's.

00;21;49;20 - 00;22;02;11

Mark Laaser

Well, the point of the point of what I'm trying to bring out here in the show, anywhere for today is, you know, okay, you know, we can have fun with this. And as long as we have fun with this, it's great if we take it way too seriously. Out of this desire to belong to the one white right group.

00;22;02;12 - 00;22;10;00

Mark Laaser

I mean, I think that can become problematic when we actually get our feelings hurt, you know, because something like this has happened like that Saturday.

00;22;10;01 - 00;22;11;04

Randy Evert

So are you over it?

00;22;11;05 - 00;22;19;18

Mark Laaser

I, I was over at about five seconds after it happened. If it weren't for the fact that some people are reminding me of it on a fairly daily basis this week.

00;22;19;19 - 00;22;28;00

Randy Evert

Because these subtle if looks could kill look that you gave me from across the room there. I was just hoping that you had recovered from that.

00;22;28;01 - 00;22;29;21

Mark Laaser

Well, I'm I'm trying to.

00;22;29;24 - 00;22;30;20

Randy Evert

Was all in jest.

00;22;30;21 - 00;22;31;00

Mark Laaser

Yes.

00;22;31;00 - 00;22;31;22

Randy Evert

I know.

00;22;31;25 - 00;22;59;05

Mark Laaser

Well, that's what we always say. We were just having fun with it. All I'm saying is that, if we get to the end of where we always should go with any of the seven desires we need to get to the fact that, you know, our faith would remind us that whatever church tradition we've grown up, wherever we went to college or school, whatever groups or fraternities and sororities, lunch tables we belong to, you know, God has, in fact, chosen us and includes us in his kingdom.

00;22;59;05 - 00;23;16;13

Mark Laaser

He has a plan to include us for eternity. And I think sometimes if we keep that, uppermost in our minds, you know, of who we truly belong to. We truly belong to, to to God and to his kingdom. Then all the other things of life become a whole lot less important.

00;23;16;13 - 00;23;35;13

Randy Evert

I think that that beautifully opens the door for you, with this being the seventh of the seven desires to wrap up this series that we've been enjoying bringing to our listeners over the past seven shows and give just give us a brief summary of the seven desires as we close up this series.

00;23;35;16 - 00;24;05;14

Mark Laaser

Well, sure, the seven desires really have to do with universal longings that God has put in our heart. Now, the reason God would put anything in our heart is to give us that sense of desire to desire him and desire healthy relationship with him and also with with others. So we all long to be heard and understood and, we all along for people to know us, we, we, we want people to, to to understand what we're talking about and, and to be good listeners.

00;24;05;20 - 00;24;28;29

Mark Laaser

We all need good listeners in our life. Second, we long to be affirmed. We long to be told we've done a good job about some specific behavior. Third, we long to be loved unconditionally and what we call blessed. We we long for there to be people in our life that we know. Even if we were to screw up and make a mistake, they would not reject us and cast us off.

00;24;28;29 - 00;24;55;22

Mark Laaser

They would still accept us and love us. Sometimes we refer to that one as unconditional love. Fourth, we all along to have safety in our life. We long to be free of anxieties about money or health or, you know, stuff like that. And and we all have this deep longing to be free of our anxieties. Number five, we we long to be touched in healthy ways.

00;24;55;24 - 00;25;19;09

Mark Laaser

We all have a built in neurochemistry that really benefits from even skin to skin contact, not involved at all in sexuality, just healthy touch and then sex. As we talked about last week, we we all longed to be chosen, to be chosen in the one flesh union of a marriage, to be chosen by friends. To be picked out of a crowd and really wanted.

00;25;19;11 - 00;25;40;14

Mark Laaser

We sometimes. And when we first started thinking of these things, we we called that one the desire to be desired. And I still like that in some ways better. And then finally today we talked about the desire to be included. So, you know, Psalm 374 says, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will grant you the desires of your heart.

00;25;40;17 - 00;25;59;26

Mark Laaser

So often in life, you know, we need to start with our foundation. You know what is really true? If we if we focus on what is really true. So many other things in life go better. God loves us. God is the one who listens to us. He says to us throughout Scripture. You know, we can talk to him anytime we want.

00;25;59;27 - 00;26;22;17

Mark Laaser

You know, and he's he's listening. God affirms us. And gives us a sense of conscience. When we do get things, we know it. And that's God approving us, affirming us. God loves us unconditionally. We can screw up innumerable times. And he's got a plan for that. God's safety says, you know, Jesus said, don't be anxious about anything because God's in charge.

00;26;22;20 - 00;26;48;01

Mark Laaser

I think God calls us into healthy fellowship where we can shake hands, put an arm around a shoulder, give each other hugs. And I think God touches us. We use that term all the time. God touch to me today. God certainly chooses us. And God includes us in his kingdom. So when we start with the basic truth, then our relationships in life gives us a sense of what's important and what is not important.

00;26;48;01 - 00;26;53;25

Mark Laaser

And I think that's very helpful and very meaningful in terms of what we pursue.

00;26;53;27 - 00;27;25;06

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. We hope that you have enjoyed this legacy series of the Seven Desires today. The final installment with the desire to be included. Featuring doctor Mark laser. We also invite you to visit our website, Faithful and True. Com where you'll find many resources available to you, as well as the information and online registration for our three day intensive workshops.

00;27;25;10 - 00;27;40;21

Randy Evert

Please check that out at Faithful and true.com. In the meanwhile, we hope that you have a great day, a wonderful week, and that you will have many blessings and great fishing.