Shame, Guilt and Conviction

Greg Miller

One of the things that is very common in the addiction community is to talk about shame and guilt, and to understand that shame is that message that there's something wrong with me, that I am bad, and it's about my identity and guilt is about my behavior. And one of the things that we talk about at the Faithful and True workshop is the idea that conviction is about relationship.

Greg Miller

And really, conviction is the place of hope that if I'm stuck in my shame, there really is no hope because I can't change who I am. If I'm stuck in my guilt, then the focus is on my behavior and my hope is in changing my behavior. But the beauty of conviction is it's the invitation of a loving God into an intimate relationship, and the hope is found in grace.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randy Everett, your co-host, and today we have a legacy presentation for you featuring doctor Mark Lazar. And our special guest on today's podcast is Doctor Greg Miller. The subject for today's podcast is shame, guilt, and conviction. Here now is doctor Mark Lazar, Doctor Greg Miller

and the Faithful and True podcast.

Mark Laaser

Randy. We're going to take a bit of a pause in our linear consideration of the old, Faithful and True workbook because we have a special guest in studio today. We are quite.

Randy Evert

To have the arrival of a guest who's a regular guest on our show from time to time. Doctor Greg Miller, who were very happy to have back in town and back on the Men of Valor program.

Mark Laaser

That is right by popular demand, acclamation and special request. Doctor Greg Miller

speak to the listeners about a subject that is very near and dear to your heart. Shame. Guilt and conviction. Conviction. I understand shame, I understand guilt, I understand conviction, but I'm. But I'm waiting, like all of the rest of you, to hear what the connection is here.

Greg Miller

One of the things that is very common in the addiction community is to talk about shame and guilt, and to understand that shame is that message that there's something wrong with me, that I am bad, and it's about my identity and guilt is about my behavior. And one of the things that we talk about at the Faithful and True workshop is the idea that conviction is about relationship.

Greg Miller

And really, conviction is the place of hope that if I'm stuck in my shame, there really is no hope because I can't change who I am. If I'm stuck in my guilt, then the focus is on my behavior and my hope is in changing my behavior. But the beauty of conviction is it's the invitation of a loving God into an intimate relationship, and the hope is found in grace.

Mark Laaser

One of the things we like to do on the show is be practical with our audience, our listeners. So if you can break this apart a little bit, can you speak to each of those shame, guilt and conviction in terms of what might be some of the things our listeners would think about if they want to work on getting to this more conviction place?

Greg Miller

Absolutely. The idea of shame is and one of the things that we talk about is our shame can be heard in the names that we call ourselves in our head. So a lot of times, as I understand, what do I call myself when I fail? Am I worthless? Am I hopeless? And the shame message many times is based upon an old core belief that we developed early on in our life.

Greg Miller

It might have been an actual message that a parent gave us, or it might have been an interpretation of experiences that we then personalized. It's helpful for me to challenge the lies of shame with the truth. So if I'm in that place, if I am worthless, I can remind myself that I am the beloved Son of God and that my worth comes from who God created me to be.

Greg Miller

It's a very practical way, in that moment of being consumed by lies, to simply name the truth. And one of the things that can happen for each of us is the message of shame can be so great at times that we struggle finding the truth within ourselves. And then there's the power of community. We can ask our community to remind us of what is true about us, what is true about who God is and who God has created us to be.

Mark Laaser

You might be anticipating my natural curiosity which is speaking to me at the moment. What are some of the names in your history that you called yourself when you felt that you were in that shame place?

Greg Miller

Some of them can't be repeated on the radio.

Mark Laaser

Thank you for that.

Greg Miller

So I will edit them. One of the keys was I am stupid. I'm an idiot. It's amazing how we can get into this rational thinking, that we can believe that our thinking can save us. So one of the worst things I could call myself was just an idiot. I'm so stupid. Another one could just be around the idea of I'm a loser, I'm worthless.

Greg Miller

I'm hopeless. And it can be just a big declaration of I am stuck in this moment and there is no way to move forward.

Mark Laaser

One of the things that I'm aware of is you're talking about this, and I reminded of a story that you and I shared as you were talking about the names you call yourself. I'm remembering a time when you called yourself those names. Do you remember when it was.

Greg Miller

The accident? Yeah, in the parking lot.

Mark Laaser

I've always believed in, you know, sharing stories so that the listeners can relate to us. But yes, it was a story in our parking lot about, I don't know, a year ago now, I think.

Greg Miller

And one night we had finished the workshop and I was kind of in that rush, distracted place, and I was backing out of the parking lot and I did what I normally do. I looked in the rearview mirror, but I did it quickly and directly behind me, and off to the side that I couldn't see was a car that I hit.

Greg Miller

And immediately I went into this place of incredible shame. And a lot of the names that I called myself was that I was a loser. I was a failure. There was a great counselor with me in the parking lot who was able just to be with me in that moment and help remind me of what was true. I think the thing I was aware of was how how quickly I went into that shame place.

Greg Miller

That, and I think part of what's true for all of us is there are certain circumstances that are the most conducive to triggering our shame. And for some reason, there was something about having an accident that was triggering, to my shame, that the accident itself was the trigger.

Mark Laaser

That's something that I would like our audience to hear. Meaning that. Oh, and by the way, last week's show we talked about magical thinking. I think there's a lot of Christians who think that when they really get right with Christ, that they'll never have another trigger of any kind again, a sexual trigger, or in this case, a shame trigger.

Mark Laaser

And one of the reasons why I think that story is so powerful is that it reminds us that we're never free of triggers. And like you just said, under the right circumstances, even this old, old wound that you've worked really hard on will still occasionally show up.

Greg Miller

I think in that particular case, one of the things that was most triggering was the awareness of the consequences that, you know, the foolishness of the money that was going to have to be sent to repair the cars, the how ridiculous it was. If I had just taken a little bit more time and slowed down, and instead of just looking in my rear view mirror, turning around and looking and scanning the parking lot, a lot of times it's the consequences of our choices that can most significantly trigger our shame.

Mark Laaser

What you're saying is that it was helpful at that point to talk about it right away, to process it right away, and that if you're around a person who isn't similarly triggered in that situation, I had an addict response. You know, the guy was not supposed to be parking there, and I thought we could get out of it because he was not supposed to be there.

Mark Laaser

But that's what an addict would do. I've always thought one of the things that changes with our triggers is how long it takes us to process them and come back from them, really.

Greg Miller

And one of the things I remember about our conversation in the parking lot is that you clearly communicated one, I'm not alone that you were there with me, and the other was that it will be okay. And it wasn't kind of just a Pollyanna response to a difficult situation, but it was just that reminder that ultimately I would be okay, that, yeah, this would be expensive.

Greg Miller

It might create some chaos for a moment. And yet ultimately I will be okay. And I just needed to be reminded of that because my shame was so great in that moment. I couldn't remember that for myself.

Mark Laaser

So if any of our listeners out there are having occasional shame attacks, give yourself a break. You know, first of all, and know that it's normal for that to happen. Back to our topic today, which is about shame, guilt and conviction. Conviction. We were talking some about the shame piece of this and getting triggered into that and how easily that happens.

Mark Laaser

And, you know, what are some of the things that are helpful? Is there anything else you'd like to say about that at this point?

Greg Miller

Yeah. One of the other thing I would add is that when our shame gets triggered, it's a great opportunity to try to identify what our core beliefs are, because our shame message is in many ways represent our core beliefs. There's a guy that I'm working with in conversation. What he began to realize is that one of his core beliefs is not just that he's not enough, that he is a deficit, that he starts each day in a deficit and has to work just to be at a zero.

Greg Miller

Well, it. It was an awareness of that, the power of that shame message that now he can begin to understand how to challenge that with the truth and the idea that because of who God created him to be, he is absolutely not a deficit and he is more than enough. And again, that's where the power of God's truth and our community reminding us of that.

Greg Miller

That's really how we fight shame.

Mark Laaser

You keep coming back to community when the listeners hear that word. I'm not sure they always know what we mean by authentic, real, helpful, transparent community. Can you speak a little bit to that?

Greg Miller

You know, when I talk about community, it's about two things. It's about organized community. So it's about being in a group that meets at a particular time that may have a structure, may have a leader. And the purpose of the gathering is for men to be together in an authentic and honest way so that they can encourage each other in their recovery.

Greg Miller

Another part of that, though, is the organic community of men that develop as I make myself available to connect with others, and they make themselves available to connect with me so it can be the guys I hang out with. It can be guys that I meet for coffee. It's whoever I call my friend. As long as there's the desire on each person's part to be open and honest and authentic.

Greg Miller

So when I talk about community, it's both the organized and the organic.

Mark Laaser

Would it be true that you would think that that organized community is where most of the men, if not all of the men, are going to have to start? You're just not going to. All of a sudden, now that you've decided to be in recovery, show up at church coffee hour and start spilling your guts all over the place, it's just not going to happen.

Greg Miller

Absolutely not. And in fact, what I tell guys on a regular basis is you use the experiences of group and you practice community there so that you then can take it away from the group and find other men that you can have an authentic relationship with.

Mark Laaser

So it spills over into your relationships with other men, right. And your children?

Greg Miller

Absolutely. And I would also add that it it also takes intentionality that it's not just going to happen. It's I choose to make it happen because of what I'm learning in the group experience.

Mark Laaser

One of the words that comes to mind is the word safe. Wouldn't that be true that not all people are safe? To get this authentic with.

Greg Miller

Absolutely, yeah. What we would say is that you use your your wisdom, your discernment, you practice vulnerability. You might just test the waters. I talk about the fact that if you're at a gathering of men at your church and you talk about the fact that, you know, you and your wife are going through a difficult time or you're struggling with something, and they immediately change the subject to the most recent sporting event, that's probably a good indication that that guy is not going to be safe.

Greg Miller

But if you risk in some slight way and a guy meets you in that place of authenticity, then that gives you the courage to risk more. So it's okay to test the waters in your own story.

Mark Laaser

Oftentimes happens. Don't you think that the other man may then get authentic or vulnerable? Absolutely. Act. Another thing I believe happens for a lot of the men, and I think this is one of the places they beat themselves up. And sometimes the wives out there wonder about how is it that you can go, Jon, to your weekly meeting at Faithful and True, or your 12 step group or your Celebrate Recovery Group, and you can get honest with all those men and you can spill your guts all over, you know, the counseling center, but you can't come home and get honest with me.

Greg Miller

Yeah, I think the simple answer is just fear. That the fear is the people in our lives that we care the most about many times are the people that we struggle being most honest with, because their rejection or their response is going to be the most painful. And one of the things that I think is true is wives get their reaction.

Greg Miller

In fact, they need to have their reaction, and their reaction will not always feel safe. And so that's why it's okay for you to go to your men's group and practice authentic, safe community there so that then you can come home and be authentic with your wife, knowing that she may have reaction that will be challenging and she gets her reaction.

Mark Laaser

So partly what you're saying there is that you have to practice, practice, practice with men who are relatively safe. One of the principles I've always said is that the person that you're most afraid of losing in the early days of your recovery will be the person that you are the least likely to tell the truth to? Absolutely. So you practice truth telling, and then you're patiently wait until your spouse is able to join you in that more authentic place.

Mark Laaser

And then you can kind of rock and roll, I think.

Greg Miller

Well, and I remember distinctly telling Beth that she was the one person that I wanted to talk to the most about the secrets, and she was the person I was most afraid to talk to.

Mark Laaser

That's right. And it took you a few months, really, before the two of you were able to get to that point, didn't it? By the way, I used a very clinical term there. If any of you need to write me an email about rock n roll, it's it's PhD level clinical stuff there. Now let's get to this last word you kept talking about.

Mark Laaser

And I keep forgetting the reconciliation.

Greg Miller

Conviction, conviction.

Mark Laaser

See, I don't know what it is. I've got a block about conviction. I probably need to go back to my own group and talk about that. Tell us how you would think about getting to conviction.

Greg Miller

There's also the idea of guilt. And guilt is just that I that idea that I've done something wrong. The focus is on changing my behavior. And the example that I use is that when I was in junior high, I got into some less than good behavior, and part of that was shoplifting. And there was a day that I came to the realization, I'm not going to do this anymore.

Greg Miller

And that was enough. I, I decided I'm not going to shoplift. I never shoplifted again. And guilt was enough to change the behavior, but the focus was on the behavior. And for a lot of guys, the question that they have is, you know, I've been able to stop other things. Why can't I stop this? And then that brings us to the idea of the conviction where we will need something beyond ourselves and our own determination not to do it again, to really change.

Greg Miller

And so conviction for me, is the idea that there is a loving God inviting us into a right relationship with him. And so conviction is that awareness that I have stepped outside the desires of a loving God, and that God is pursuing me and desiring me, and my hope is found in grace. You know, the one thing I cannot do is go back and change any of the choices that I've made.

Greg Miller

So the only hope I have is that there is grace and forgiveness from a God who loves me. And one of the challenges with a lot of the men that we work with is they struggle believing that God is the loving God who pursues them and experientially, either in the way that God was presented or even in some experiences that they had within the church.

Greg Miller

Their greatest assumption is God is is against them. Or at least God is spying on them to see when they do poorly. Versus there is a loving God who wants them to do well, has desires for them, and readily forgives them when they choose grace. So our hope is found then in the relationship with God, not in something else that I have to do, but the belief that God loves me enough to forgive me.

Mark Laaser

I'm going to ask you a difficult question, but it's kind of one of the themes of our show, actually, and that is, do you think there for given what you're saying about conviction and about understanding God's grace and God's loving kindness toward us? How important is it for your early level support your your structured group that you were talking about?

Mark Laaser

How important is it for that, for that to be a Christian group?

Greg Miller

I cannot imagine doing recovery without there being the faith and the hope of Christ, because there has to be that sense of grace. There has to be that sense of forgiveness. I know for a lot of men, they they have this idea that God is this great zapper that is just waiting for them to fail in order to injure them or hurt them, and to believe that there is a a creator of the universe that designed them, that pursues them, that loves them, that creates hope for them, I think is foundational, because without that, where is my hope?

Greg Miller

My hope is in either guilting my way into recovery or shaming my way into recovery. And experience teaches that neither one of those are really effective, that it really is the invitation of a loving God that results in transformation.

Mark Laaser

I want to be clear, by the way, I don't want to create any confusion in a lot of emails. I'm not saying that at some point you shouldn't go to a 12 step group or a group that's designed around behavioral accountability, which I think the 12 step groups are. I mean, I think they can be very effective and helping you stop something and helping you have accountability around what you're not doing.

Mark Laaser

So it could be definitely a part of your program. I think what we are saying, however, is that at some point, in order to get to this deeper place that you're talking about, that really does need to be a group of authentic Christians who embrace a loving God.

Greg Miller

Well, in the 12 step tradition was a part of my recovery early on, and I never looked toward the 12 step group to create my faith experience. I brought my faith experience to that group, and I think that's part of the value of it. If I'm clear in my faith, then I don't need the group to define it for me, and I can steward the group in the way that is most helpful.

Greg Miller

And one of the things that we talk about at the workshop is the need for every man to have a sacred space where they can really wrestle with God. And at the other, other end of that wrestling come out with an authentic, intimate connection with God.

Mark Laaser

Can you talk about the recovery team at the workshop? Another element of the team at times would be a voice of spiritual wisdom, like a spiritual director, right?

Greg Miller

And that's part of the sacred spiritual space where I can wrestle with God. And there is a voice, a mentor, a director that can help me navigate the complexity of my own faith.

Mark Laaser

Well, that's not a bad place to bring this back, because you started out talking about all the names. When we're in that chain place that we call ourselves, and if you get into the sacred place and learn the truth about God's love, then you will get a new name. Won't you?

Greg Miller

Absolutely.

Mark Laaser

Great place to stop. We hope that all of our listeners out there are looking for their new identity in Christ.

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. We hope that you have found this podcast to be very informative and beneficial to you. It's always great to see doctor Mark Lazar on these legacy podcast presentations and of course, switching roles. Doctor Greg Miller

was our guest on this today, and Greg is now, of course, the the lead host to our podcast.

Randy Evert

We invite you now to visit our website, Faithful and true.com, where you'll find lots of resources available to you, as well as information and online registration for our three day intensive workshops. We host the Men's Journey Workshop every month here at Faithful and True, and then on a quarterly basis, we offer the Women's Journey Workshop and two different varieties of Couples Journey workshops.

Randy Evert

Check those out. The information and registration options are there for you on the website. In the meantime, we hope that you find this week to be a week for you that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.