Separation for Marriage Recovery

Dr. Greg Miller

Here at Faithful and True. Separation is not a prelude to divorce. You know, when we begin talking to a lot of couples about this, there can be resistance, even though they're aware that the dynamic between the two of them is not good, that they are just continuing to hurt each other by being together. There can be resistance to the separation, and it's because some people have this core belief that if we're separating, that means we're giving up.

Dr. Greg Miller

It means that we're surrendering and that this will lead to divorce. But what we want people to understand is that the separation is a new way to approach and work on the relationship. It's another way to really strengthen by separating and working on ourselves for a season, so that we have a greater infrastructure to deal with some of the difficult issues and topics when we get back together.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randy Everett, your co-host, and thrilled to be here today with our usual host, doctor Greg Miller. Greg, great to see you.

Dr. Greg Miller

It's good.

Randy Evert

To be here. And we also have the the special occasion of having our director and co-founder Debbie Laser. Debbie, great to see you today.

Debbie Laaser

That hesitation I wasn't quite sure. Well.

Dr. Greg Miller

I was like the introduction was going to be.

Randy Evert

I was trying to find the right words. But you know, the bottom line is we're thrilled that you're here. So we have we have gotten Debbie to join us today for us to talk about the hazards of a lukewarm separation.

Dr. Greg Miller

Absolutely. And for those of you that are familiar with faithful and true, you know that one of the tools in the toolbox is what we refer to as a redemptive separation or a therapeutic separation. And what's true is there are just times in a couple's life we're taking space, can be a part of the healing journey, and that it really can be the next right step for a couple.

Dr. Greg Miller

And there are some factors that help us to determine that it might be best. And, you know, we never make that decision for a couple, but we may offer it as a possibility. And I'd say one of the things that we see is when the environment of the home and the relationship has just become so toxic that it's difficult for them to talk or be around each other, even in simple matters.

Debbie Laaser

And we often say that, you know, trying to have conversations that usually end up in despair or some fights or some verbal abuse to each other, whatever, actually do more damage than if we could help them take a time out from that so that they can work on some other ways of being safer with each other, and then come back with more to offer the relationship.

Dr. Greg Miller

Another factor I would think that we look at is if there seems to be a repetitive or cyclical nature to the fights, it's like they are stuck that when this topic comes up, they don't get anywhere and it like leads to hostility. But what can also be true? Sometimes hostility is loud and screaming, but sometimes hostility is silent.

Dr. Greg Miller

It's that withdrawal. It's that stonewalling. And so if we see kind of this pattern of either these big explosions or this cold, icy and on their own, they're really struggling to get out of that separation may be a good option for them.

Debbie Laaser

I think another situation, Greg, is when someone is really hurting, as is the case when there's discovery, typically in our the relationships we work with and when anyone is in a really hurting place, even when it's physical, typically we just need to rest. We need space. We need quiet. We need to get away from all the chaos of our life.

Debbie Laaser

And so it can be very helpful to move away from even our families or our spouses for a time to find that space.

Dr. Greg Miller

Right? Yeah. Especially when there's been significant betrayal, like we talk about here at Faithful and True when just being around the spouse is triggering your pain. I mean, it's just difficult to be around them. It's a constant reminder. And we know that if we're in constant pain, we're not going to be able to heal. In fact, a doctor told me one time that some sometimes they have to provide medication to reduce pain so that the body can begin to heal itself.

Dr. Greg Miller

And I think emotionally that's also true. If I'm in constant pain simply because of the presence of my spouse, then I may need some separation in order to begin that process of healing.

Debbie Laaser

I've heard women say also that moving away for a time and separation can be about finally allowing their brain to think more clearly. And I think that is what happens, because when we're sharing a space where we're angry, or we're so hurt or disappointed or afraid that it does block our ability to get to that cortex again, where we can think clearly, make better decisions, have better conversations.

Debbie Laaser

We're just stuck in that fight or flight or freeze place, which doesn't help us to really offer anything to the relationship. So it's best to move away. And a lot of times, I know that it can be difficult when you're in a painful place to not make a quick decision to get out of pain, and that's where I think also a separation can really serve a good purpose in that.

Debbie Laaser

Otherwise, the choice for many people is to feel like they have to just divorce to get away and find that space. And we would like to think that this is a this is a great alternative to making a quick decision to leave, to be able to stay, not give up on the marriage necessarily, but to take some time away, to tend to your own self-care, really in your own growth.

Dr. Greg Miller

Right. You know, if you're aware that just being around your spouse, you're bracing. You know, one of the indicators could be that when y'all are apart, maybe y'all are at work. You know, each of you are in your separate places, or maybe there's someone leaves for the weekend and you're aware that you really can relax and kind of recalibrate.

Dr. Greg Miller

But as soon as the partner comes back, you're immediately back in, like you said, hypervigilance or you you're bracing. That's just not sustainable. And so there could be some indicators, you know, that separation could be a helpful thing. And one of the first things that we want to say is here at Faithful and True separation is not a prelude to divorce.

Dr. Greg Miller

You know, when we begin talking to a lot of couples about this, there can be resistance, even though they're aware that the dynamic between the two of them is not good, that they are just continuing to hurt each other by being together. There can be resistance to the separation, and it's because some people have this core belief that if we're separating, that means we're giving up.

Dr. Greg Miller

It means that, you know, we're surrendering and that this will lead to divorce. But what we want people to understand is that the separation is a new way to approach and work on the relationship. It's another way to really strengthen by separating and working on ourselves for a season, so that we have a greater infrastructure to deal with some of the difficult issues and topics when we get back together.

Debbie Laaser

What's also true is that some of our couples work with their pastors or a ministry leader, and it's actually the church in whatever way that's presented to them that is against separation, believing that it is a slow walk out the door to divorce. And so I know we don't always have the opportunity to talk to ministry leaders when their folks come here for help.

Debbie Laaser

But I, I hope some of them are listening and know that that's never our intent. It's why, if at all possible, we call it redemptive meaning our desire is to bring the couple back together after a time of taking out the focus of the marriage and focusing on yourselves. Sometimes there is a better choice, because for some wives, they clearly don't know whether it will redeem the marriage or not.

Debbie Laaser

And a lot of that depends on whether acting out stops and whether the her spouse is getting help for the addiction or compulsion that he's dealing with. So there are some unknowns, but in any case, it is helpful. And we definitely see that 100% of the time. I cannot think of a separation that has not been helpful when it has been guided.

Debbie Laaser

Right.

Dr. Greg Miller

And that's.

Debbie Laaser

A.

Randy Evert

Big win.

Dr. Greg Miller

That's a big footnote there. That's right. When it is supported and guided and there is a strategy behind it. In fact, that's kind of what we're going to be talking about is this idea of what are the factors that contribute to a therapeutic or redemptive separation, and then what are some of the dangers? We talked about that lukewarm.

Dr. Greg Miller

And this is one of the patterns that we see is we're working with a couple and they are sort of separated. You know, they have some of the guidelines, some of the parameters, maybe they're trying in-house. So they're staying in separate rooms or it's an out of house separation. So they're not living under the same roof anymore. And yet some of the things that we would encourage, some of the boundaries, some of the structure that we see is so important.

Dr. Greg Miller

Is it really taken seriously? So it's a sort of separation in the way I describe it. It's the worst of both worlds that they're getting all the cost of the separation with none of the benefit. And so what are some of the factors that we're going to be looking at to really support a couple in creating strong boundaries and being able to honor those?

Debbie Laaser

Well, I can't help but throw in one of Mark's jokes.

Randy Evert

You know?

Debbie Laaser

But he used to say, you know, being sort of separated is like being sort of pregnant. You just you either are you're not, you know, if you're going to have this be an effective tool for your for the growth of yourself in the relationship. So pardon me for bringing Mark in, but I just.

Randy Evert

Couldn't help.

Dr. Greg Miller

That.

Debbie Laaser

He's already removed.

Randy Evert

Exactly.

Debbie Laaser

He's here saying.

Debbie Laaser

They're just in there. So. Well, first of all, I think just acknowledging the fact that a separation I have never seen it be two people coming into a session saying, we have decided we want to be separated, right. That never happens. As far as I've seen in all the years I've been working. And what we do see is one person, most typically, it is the betrayed spouse who needs this space or needs some time away or whatever.

Debbie Laaser

We want to call that separation redemptive. And and so in some ways, there's probably one person who is not as enthused about this as the other one that needs it. And I think just acknowledge that helps to know and name it. This is not like a fair deal. You're not getting together to both of you decide what are the guidelines going to be, but the one that needs the space is going to have more say.

Debbie Laaser

So in terms of what that will be like. Hopefully when it's guided and where there is professionals helping them, we can lead a conversation so that it it does appear as if there will be good things in this for both of them, even though it may be harder for one to enter in.

Dr. Greg Miller

And one of the things about a positive redemptive separation is about motivation. So what we want people to understand is this is not punishment. You're not punishing your spouse because of what he did. There is this greater value of this is a way that we can nurture our relationship or even discover what might be possible in our relationship.

Dr. Greg Miller

And as we were talking to our staff about this, one of the staff members talked about, there can be this dance in a couple ship. If one of the people are kind of avoidant and the other person leads towards enmeshed, meant it can create a lot of chaos because the one that leans towards a measurement may see this as punishment, and may see this as rejection.

Dr. Greg Miller

And the one who is avoidant may actually see this as a prize of getting some space. And so what we know is survivor separation kind of using our language here, a survivor separation is not going to be productive. And so the idea is I'm going to bring my best, wisest self to understanding why we are doing this, what the motivation is.

Dr. Greg Miller

I'm going to try to be my wisest self when we're discussing and understanding what the boundaries are going to be, and then I'm going to be my wisest self as I seek to honor and live within the boundaries that maybe we have not discovered or decided to get. But I have agreed to in this season.

Debbie Laaser

I think oftentimes with our couples and I'm talking with the women that they they have reactively gotten into a separation because they've thrown their husbands out, as they may say, or asked him to leave or whatever the situation is. And we've been doing this, they might tell me for two years or something. And I almost always know in that case that they haven't had help with that.

Debbie Laaser

All it is has been as a punishment of making someone leave because they did bad things. And when I ask about whether they've had help, she inevitably says no. And that's when I usually offer the suggestion that typically a separation would not need to last that long. If you have if you have guidance and you have a plan for what you're going to do and how what you need in order to come back to the relationship, because we generally can name those things and we know that we can work on those things, and then that would help them to feel more ready to come back.

Debbie Laaser

Not not just all in one. This is not a black and white kind of situation, but they may start spending a little bit more time together or talking a little bit more about certain things. So that planned redemptive separation is very different, as you said, than the reactive, punishing kind of separation.

Dr. Greg Miller

Well, it's the difference between treading water and swimming towards shore. You know, a lot of times, like you said, a couple has separated for a variety of different reasons. But there's no intentionality. There's no movement towards something. And it really is like they're just stuck out in the ocean, treading water, trying to keep their head above the water.

Dr. Greg Miller

But when we are moving towards shore as a couple, then we start to see progress and purpose and that makes all of the difference. And one of the things that I think that we look for is that there is a consistency in the separation itself. You know, this back to this idea of what is a lukewarm separation. Well, sometimes we're honoring the boundaries and sometimes we're not, and we're just kind of deciding in the day, do we want to do this thing together, though we agreed that we wouldn't do it.

Dr. Greg Miller

Are we going to go ahead and have this conversation, even though part of the agreement is we weren't going to talk about these things, and that's going to be that lukewarm experience where there's not clarity as to why we are doing this and why it's important that we do it consistently. And one of the things that we encourage couples, you know, when I'm working with them, is this idea that if you decide to set the boundary aside, that there's an intentional conversation with you about that, the couple talks about that, but that is also something that you bring into the counseling session that for whatever reason, and you can share your reason.

Dr. Greg Miller

But we feel like it's okay for us to change this boundary. But sometimes what happens is when we make that momentary decision of, okay, we're just going to do this. It ends up creating more chaos because then there can be regret of, oh, we agreed not to do this. Now I understand why we shouldn't be doing this. And now I feel the chaos of it.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah.

Debbie Laaser

So we do talk about purpose with couples that do agree to go into a separation with guidance. And the purpose we always talk about. We don't have our hoops here, but if we did and we had three of them like that would be to take the focus off of this couple's hoop and to bring it back to our individual.

Debbie Laaser

Whoops. So that back here, we're both going to decide, we're going to help them decide what they can work on, to focus on themselves and their own growth. And some of that might even be, what do I do with myself when I don't have my spouse to do things with? For a lot of them, they're kind of lost because everything has been a couple.

Debbie Laaser

For some, it's just about, well, I've never, you know, unless my wife suggests we read a book together or whether I probably wouldn't, but maybe in this time a counselor would say, I would like you to do this, or I'd like you to read a book, or I'd like you to go through this workbook with me, or I'd like you to join a group for the first time.

Debbie Laaser

So there are recommendations specifically for these individual whoops back here. And we're going to not abandon this, but we're going to let it sit up here by itself with only a very little attention in the beginning. So we can put all the focus back here.

Dr. Greg Miller

One of the things you mentioned, the hoops we talk about having conversations with our spouse from our hoop, and this is one of those places where it's not an ultimatum, you know, it's not if you don't do this, then we're not getting back together. But there can really be more of that encouragement. This is something I need to see in this separation.

Dr. Greg Miller

I need to see that you are committed to doing your work. I need to see that you are committed to spending time with the kids. I need to and and it's not a declaration or an ultimatum, but it's recognizing I have a need. And a lot of times it's I have the need to be safe. So one of the things that create safety is somebody honoring boundaries.

Dr. Greg Miller

So I need to see that you're going to honor the boundaries of the separation. And it is important that the couple is able to talk about those things. But again, the focus isn't on the couple's hoop. It's really on themselves and the work that they're doing in their own lives, in their own hoops.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah.

Debbie Laaser

And it may be, as I said, that generally speaking, it's the wives hoop here who has requested the separation. And she may not even be clear enough about why she needs it. She just knows I can't share air with him right now, and so we might move into that. But part of the work is going to be why is it you need the separation?

Debbie Laaser

And let's figure out what has to happen before you would even take some steps towards the couple's hoop. Again, not having that clarity because of all the pain from the trauma that's been created because of the discovery, really kind of blocks someone from thinking clearly. And that in and of itself is one of the reasons to go over here and get that cleared out.

Debbie Laaser

For her.

Dr. Greg Miller

You know, I do work with men who, because of the betrayal, their wives are really activated in their anger and they can get triggered into their anger. And then there's a lot of yelling and screaming, name calling, profanity, maybe even throwing things. And so it's okay in the separation for the husbands need to be. I would like for us to be able to have a conversation, and you express your anger and be regulated.

Dr. Greg Miller

And so the husband's boundary may be I'm open to having conversations with you as long as there's not name calling, as long as you're not activated and throw things, whatever the issue is. So we're not saying that this is just about what a wife might need, but it's okay for the husband, even though he was the one that created the betrayal to recognize.

Dr. Greg Miller

I also have some needs in this as we're moving towards each other. Maybe possibly in the future.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah.

Debbie Laaser

And you know, I love Maya Angelou's verse. It's one of my favorites. That part of what we're learning back here is, as she says, how can we all be in pain without being a pain? And it's true that we we don't have the right, no matter what's happened to us, to abuse others, you know, for revenge or to get back and give you some of what I got or whatever.

Debbie Laaser

I mean, as Christians, that's not ideally what we're working towards. And so it can be helpful when either one of them have boundaries around some of those abusive things, whether it's sexual, physical.

Debbie Laaser

Verbal.

Debbie Laaser

To say, we need a time apart until, you know, I can settle down. One of my favorite things from a wife that talked to me said, I can't control myself, and I don't even like who I am, and I want to come over here until I can manage this well. And as we say here, regulate our emotions better.

Debbie Laaser

So and I'm glad you mentioned it about a husband, because I don't believe that even though we're talking about discovery of things that have not been helpful or and have been hurtful, that.

Debbie Laaser

He.

Debbie Laaser

Too does not deserve to be beat over the head or yelled or screamed at or profanity. It's it's also a reason why he needs some space if that's happening. So it can be either one and in some cases both.

Dr. Greg Miller

When one other thing I see in a lot of men is they carry so much shame that just being around their spouse keeps them stuck in their shame. And what we know is they're not able to move forward. You know, we we talk. We talk about Beth and I are early experience. And I was so consumed with shame.

Dr. Greg Miller

And initially, Beth probably didn't have a negative reaction to the shame because some of the things that I was thinking about myself, she probably believed about me too. But there comes a point where she recognized we can't move forward if he is stuck in his shame. And Beth and I were separated and it wasn't structured, and we absolutely would have benefited if there had been a structure and a redemption to it.

Dr. Greg Miller

We were kind of figuring some stuff on our own, but we also saw it with a purpose. You know, we did, even on our own, have this sense of purpose in it. But one of the things that was helpful for me is to have some space away from her, because just being around her triggered my shame. She wasn't responsible for it.

Dr. Greg Miller

She wasn't trying to shame me, but I needed to get away from that environment and be in a place with community of men, others that could be with me and not immediately go trigger me into my shame. So when we're talking about this, for a lot of the men, there are those benefits. So even if the wife is directing it, even if the wife is initiating it, my encouragement, and this is kind of what helps it move from just being a lukewarm partial separation to a fully engaged separation is for the men to ask, what can I get out of this?

Dr. Greg Miller

What can how can this separation shape and form me? How do I use this to strengthen my recovery?

Debbie Laaser

And what do I need as a man to feel safe myself? You know, so there is safety that's often a part of the separation. And both people can be working on that. As I say, even in all these years, I mean, I don't see anybody who's always squeaky clean. Safe is something we're all working on. And so there's always something in that category for both of them to work on.

Dr. Greg Miller

Right. And I want to go back to the anger because I just want to clarify. There's a difference between moments of anger and patterns of anger. And so it makes perfect sense, given the betrayal and what the wife is experienced, that she may have these moments of outburst, of anger. And like you said, she doesn't show up with her best, wisest version.

Dr. Greg Miller

That's different, though, than that person who regularly has this pattern of anger. And one of the things that we may see is actually that is a pattern from the past that that that's not something that has been created because of the betrayal. It's something that's really being exposed because of the betrayal. And this is a great opportunity that if the husband is out of the house, it creates the space that the wife can really look at.

Dr. Greg Miller

Wow, where is this anger coming from? Yes, it's being triggered by the betrayal. But what is this about for me? And I think for both the husband and wife, that's the question that we're asking, is what is going on in me that I'm bringing into the relationship that's actually creating chaos? And how can I steward this separation to get clarity around those things and really begin to experience the healing that I need, so that I can show up with my better self in the marriage?

Debbie Laaser

So we talk about a lot of specifics when we try to guide a couple through this. And the first one is really about how to talk to others about what we're doing. And I guess we're assuming that maybe this is an out of house separation. Again, the problem for many is how can we do this affordably? I love your your example of how you guys pulled that off without spending a lot of money.

Debbie Laaser

And I think it ended up being very effective in terms of what you learned, even in that, you know, it's like everything can be therapeutic, including how you figure out where you're going to live and with whom you mind sharing.

Debbie Laaser

That or. No, not at all.

Dr. Greg Miller

So part of the story is my life explodes, I get exposed. I live in hotels for a while, but that's just not cost effective. And because I'd been fired, there wasn't a lot of money and it really was a gift. There was an older couple in our church and this was their ministry. It's kind of the ministry of the lost sheep, and they would open their home to people who just needed it for a season.

Dr. Greg Miller

And, you know, it's God's timing is a mystery. And yet I look at this and know that God is active in this, because about a week before I needed a place to stay, the person that was living with them transitioned, and it was their ministry to have the lost sheep in their home. And so when the room became vacant, they found out about our situation.

Dr. Greg Miller

I think Beth was even the one that contacted them, and they opened their home for me or opened their home to me. And that may be a rare situation, but I do know a people who are called to the Ministry of Hospitality, and they're able to create that safe space for a season. And I look at that and just see it as God's provision and feel so honored that I got to be a part of that.

Dr. Greg Miller

And I I'm always hesitant because it doesn't always work out that way. And yet, if we're not open to the possibility, we can't really discover how it might work out. And I have heard stories of provisions and opportunities and gifts that made it possible. And one of the things I would say is for people who feel like this may be their gift of hospitality, you know, they have kids out of the house, they have that additional room, and they're a part of ministries, and they become aware of someone that is separated.

Dr. Greg Miller

One of the best one of the things that the woman said to me is, Greg, if you move here, you're not a guest, you become a part of the family. And so we have expectations for you. We expect that you will eat with us. We expect that you will contribute. You know, one of the rules I had is everybody in the house makes their bed.

Dr. Greg Miller

So I made my bed. I didn't always prior to this, but every morning I made my bed because I was a part of something. And it was important in my separation from Beth that I could be a part of something. And they beautifully they allowed me to be a part of their family. And so there is opportunity. We just have to be open to it.

Debbie Laaser

I think.

Debbie Laaser

We had another young couple. They had a couple of small children, and they decided they wanted to do an at a house separation, and they found a couple also at their church who was willing to take one of them in, and their decision was to switch every two weeks. And so he would go there for two weeks, and then she would go there, and the other one would be home with the kids.

Debbie Laaser

And here was what they said. They learned big time by going there. I said, neither one of us had a particularly healthy family growing up, and we got to live with this couple who were really modeling to us what it was like to have emotional connection for us, and they said it was so helpful to even know what we were working towards in this process.

Debbie Laaser

Absolutely cool.

Dr. Greg Miller

Well, when you know, one thing that I would say is this lukewarm separation that creates chaos is one where we're not fully invested, so we're just sort of following the guidelines. We're sort of honoring the boundaries. We're not fully engaging the invitation. And so what I would encourage is, for those of you that are considering separation or are in separation to really understand the purpose of it, the vision of it, and then to get clear about the boundaries and expectations of it.

Dr. Greg Miller

And one of the we often talk about the couple's dance here. And the image for me is for many couples, we have this unhealthy couple's dance. And as soon as the music starts playing, we get into the patterns. Well. The separation is an opportunity for each person to individually work on their dance steps. They get stronger in those dance dance steps because when they get back together, they can create a new dance.

Dr. Greg Miller

Even though the music is the same. And one of the most difficult things to do is dance differently when the song doesn't change. But what we know having worked with couples, it's absolutely possible.

Debbie Laaser

Do we have to stop?

Randy Evert

We have to stop.

Debbie Laaser

I know.

Debbie Laaser

I was looking at this.

Randy Evert

I was at that.

Debbie Laaser

And that.

Debbie Laaser

Really important to say.

Dr. Greg Miller

We had time for what you want to say?

Debbie Laaser

Yes. Yeah.

Debbie Laaser

Well, I was just going to say it. It's like one of the first things we generally notice is that there is this pattern of someone who does a lot of initiating and another one that pulls back very similar. And so someone, even though the original guidelines are you, will not talk with each other except for logistics this first month that they're texting eight, ten times a day or emailing or calling or whatever.

Debbie Laaser

And so even that pattern becomes very clear in the beginning. And so we we notice the patterns. We have to help them know how to respond to.

Debbie Laaser

Them.

Debbie Laaser

How to change them, and then work on those. So, so many things we learn when couples.

Debbie Laaser

Go through. Yeah.

Dr. Greg Miller

It's again that same principle. It's not that something is created, something is exposed.

Debbie Laaser

That's right. Okay.

Randy Evert

That was worth waiting for. The the two of you are just full of all kinds of great experience and wisdom there. And I know our listeners are enjoying that. We want to thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. We hope that this great conversation that Greg and Debbie have had today will help you on your healing journey as well.

Randy Evert

Lots of great recommendations for you to follow. We also would like to make sure that you get the opportunity to visit our website, Faithful and True, where you will find lots of resources, lots of online registrations and information about our three day intensive workshops. And we invite you to look into that because our workshops are are really they.

Debbie Laaser

Are bustling.

Randy Evert

They're bustling. Yeah we are. We're having record numbers come, and we'd like to invite you to be a part of that. So in the meantime, we hope that this coming week for you will be a week that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.