Safety Before Full Disclosure

Rebecca Dekkers

Again, like it's often about how we do things versus, you know, the what if for most wise if she senses, you know, like if we're again trying to do recovery by the old rules of addiction, where he manages the information and she's left somewhat powerless, she just needs to take whatever he's willing to tell us that's going to make her.

Rebecca Dekkers

Feel pretty hopeless, feel pretty shut down, like she's going to have a lot of big feelings about the sense that he still gets to manage, and I just get left powerless. And, you know, as somebody who works with the wives, I want her to be leaning into always that I can make good choices about, you know, do I want to know details?

Rebecca Dekkers

Do I, like, do I? And to really consider, you know, perhaps I don't in some ways want to know too many details, but I want her to come to a place where she chooses that rather than being told, you don't get to know that. I've. I don't think that's good for you.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randy Everett, your co-host. And today we are here, as usual, with our fearless leader, Greg Miller. Greg, great to see you. It's good to be here. And, Greg, we had such great feedback on the last podcast with our guests. We asked them to come back again. Rebecca Dekkers from the staff here at Faithful and True and our clinical director, Jim Farm.

Jim Farm

Well, you're probably hoping for Rebecca.

Rebecca Dekkers

Well.

Randy Evert

If we could, every show would be with Rebecca, but it's not the case anyway. We're happy to have you back with us today, and we're going to tackle the subject of staying safe as you prepare for or wait for full disclosure.

Greg MIller

Yeah, it's almost kind of a continuation of the last podcast where we're talking about those early days when couples are trying to navigate the challenges of being in a relationship with this new information. And so in the last podcast, we talked about the difficulties of kind of being in public spaces with this other stuff going on. Well, now we're going to be talking about how do we function in the privacy of our home when this information is out there.

Greg MIller

The couple has agreed to do a full disclosure. And what's true is just sometimes the scheduling means it's going to be a while before it can happen. But what's also true is we also encourage couples to wait a little bit so that it can be thoughtful and intentional when they get together to share the information. And so we know that that waiting for the couple ship is really a very stressful, difficult time because we know something is coming.

Greg MIller

And maybe for the spouse, she's not sure what it's going to be.

Rebecca Dekkers

Well, and I just want to normalize right off the bat that in the in the initial days and weeks, initially right after discovery, it's pretty normal that it's like late night conversations. You know, I call them marathon conversations that every time we're alone, it's all about this and we're talking about it endlessly. And it feels like exhausting and scary and hard for almost all couples.

Rebecca Dekkers

And that that is hard. That's difficult. It's also pretty common, but it also is. It can be helped by having some framework, some structure to that a little bit. Right? Yeah.

Greg MIller

And I'm just going to briefly say that we do believe in the idea of a full disclosure that we feel like for a couple to move forward, that that information about the man's sexual history from birth to the present is shared in a very intentional way. And even for the couple where, you know, the information is leaked out over time, we still see the benefit of it in a structured way being offered.

Greg MIller

And kind of the idea is the man is preparing to share it and the wife is preparing to hear it. And both parts of that equation are significant.

Jim Farm

Yeah, yeah, I think that's the big part, because I mean, when you start working with a lot of our guys, it takes them a while to remember things, you know what I mean? So if you try to push too far ahead, it's going to feel like what we describe as a staggered recovery. We're getting a little bit of information here and there, you.

Greg MIller

Know, and another thing that can happen is there can be an unintentional consequence of the man is doing his best, to be honest. But he just in that moment didn't remember everything. Two days later he has the more memory. So he brings that. But it feels like it's this, you know, stop and start kind of experience. And it can appear as if he's not being honest and trustworthy.

Greg MIller

And the reality is he's doing his best. But just because of the way the memory works, because of the nature of addiction, it does take some time for some of those details to surface so that he can share it in a meaningful way.

Rebecca Dekkers

And one of the hard things about that is that makes perfect sense in his hoop, in his in his story, that it takes time as he's learning to become more and more of a proactive truth teller, but also makes sense for the wife is that that feels super distressing, right? That she would it would be wise of her to feel a need for enough information that I need, even for right now, even as we're waiting for the full disclosure that I would need enough information because there's been this, this thing that that she had no idea.

Rebecca Dekkers

Perhaps, you know, everybody's story is different, but for a lot of wives, there was this thing that I had no idea. And so it's it's I just want to say wise of her that she would need a certain amount of information.

Greg MIller

Well, just even to be in the house to stay in any way engaged, there's certain information that needs to be shared so that she has enough to create a level of safety so that she can be present in any form in the relationship. When one thing I would say is, I know one of the most hurtful things to women, or one of them can be when a man struggles to remember.

Greg MIller

Yeah, you know, it's kind of like the wife is saying this was the most painful, difficult thing in our marriage. And you don't remember the numbers. You don't remember how often you don't remember the amounts of money. And you know what? What's true, it's tragic and true is just like it's difficult for the drunk person to remember what he did last night.

Greg MIller

When we are acting out sexually, we are not present in the experience. We are disassociated in some way and invest in what's going on. And it's common for me when I'm talking to a guy and just ask, you know, he's just looked at pornography. How long did you look? He would say, oh, 30 minutes. But if he were to actually check the history of the computer, it's no, he was doing it for two hours.

Greg MIller

But the problem is he's not present. He's not conscious of the time he's invested in this chaos. And so it makes sense that recall is going to have to be intentional. And yet there is information that is foundational that he can share. And I would say that here at Faithful and True, we don't believe it's helpful for no information to be shared prior to the full disclosure.

Greg MIller

There's some foundational things and maybe specific things that the wife needs to know even to be waiting for. The full disclosure.

Jim Farm

Yeah, we talk about that. Not waiting to drop bombs at the full disclosure, right, that some of these bigger things, that would be pretty impactful. We truly believe why we should have that information before the full disclosure, not wait this long, longer period of time to hear that.

Greg MIller

Yeah. And some of that may be different for different coupled because of different circumstances. And I do think what's pretty universal is that women want to know that their children are safe, and that there is no acting out that involved the children. I think that kind of some understanding of the nature of the pornography. And again, if there was this underage pornography that can create a lot of chaos for a spouse.

Greg MIller

And so there are just some principles that in order for the relationship to continue, those need to be addressed. And so that could be one of them. I would think that a lot of women want to know, did this involve anybody else? I know, Rebecca, you've talked about the fact that that's important to know because of the possibility of STIs and the physical impact that that could have on someone.

Rebecca Dekkers

Well, and really like the full disclosure is so foundational in some ways because we're it's a corrective experience. It's not just about the information for for a lot of couples, there is the bulk of the information that we have been able to talk about somewhat safely within the couple ship beforehand. One of the things I want to say to is that she, you know, as she's, you know, perhaps asking questions and having a legitimate need for those questions to be answered.

Rebecca Dekkers

Even as we're leading up to full disclosure, she might have a lot of emotions around it, and it is difficult for her to to be experiencing all of the fear and all of the legitimate, you know, stress response, you know, fight, flight, all of the stress response. And for her body to be in kind of a neurochemical storm as she's trying to make sense of it.

Rebecca Dekkers

And so, you know, her husband being able to practice as much transparency as he is able to, you know, as he's working out what is the, you know, his remembering and stuff like that. But if she has a sense that he wants to be truthful and that he's engaged in being a truth teller, often she is much more able to help herself slow down a little bit and make good choices about what do I need to know.

Rebecca Dekkers

And so that's one of the things often tell couples is, yes, we want to do this well. And as much as she can sense a willingness to be a proactive truth teller, it's likely going to be able to help her slow down and make good choices.

Greg MIller

Well, and the great irony is how he responds to her questions and to her anxiety, whatever it may be, is part of information that he's giving her. Yeah. And so if he's able and we don't do it perfectly, but if he's able to show up in a calm, reassuring way, if he can answer the questions that she has, those are the types of things that help to create some of that safety, you know, and for I would imagine, you know, living in the dark for all of us is scary.

Greg MIller

And so the more that we can kind of turn on some light so it's not complete darkness, the safer a wife can feel in that. And there may be some specific things that she wants to know. And if we can answer those questions like, did this ever involve the children? And he can say, no, this never involved the children.

Greg MIller

If that is what is true. It's a very important that we're honest when we are ask those questions. And part of it is recognizing there's a reason why she is asking and not to be offended by the question. You know, a lot of times a husband would say, well, I would never do that. But the reality is you've hidden and lied and deceived.

Greg MIller

And so she doesn't know where the boundary is because you have cross boundaries. And so part of her questions is, are kind of trying to determine where is the boundary for you. What are you willing to do and not willing to do. And so that's why these questions, they may be difficult to hear. But for the men, the more they're able to validate.

Greg MIller

Yes, it makes sense that you would ask that question. It makes sense. You wouldn't trust me. And the less defensive he is and answering it, the more she may be able to receive the answer.

Jim Farm

Well, the questions are really to establish, am I safe? Am I currently safer now? Right? You know, and so, you know, I think they're fair questions. But you're right. You know, for a person that's been carrying shame, it may immediately just trigger defensiveness. And, you know, which often is almost more for the wife. Right. You know.

Greg MIller

When one of the things that we would say is if a wife has a fear about a particular thing, maybe her suspicion is that he has crossed a flesh line and has been sexual with somebody else, and that is not a part of his story. For him to be able to say, I know that you may not believe this, you may not trust me.

Greg MIller

And what is true is I never acted out with anybody else. I exclusively looked at pornography. That kind of reassurance. She still may not believe him, but that is offering her some clarity that she can consider what she wants to do with that. And so, you know, for the guy who says, well, I can't talk about anything until, you know, the full disclosure, that actually is not going to be helpful to the process.

Jim Farm

No, no, I think the other thing, too, is, you know, for some of the couples, we need to teach them some skills that might help them to regulate, you know, when one person's flooded or both of them are flooded. You know, we teach taking breaks, things like that. You know, I think one of the other things I run into every so often is, you know, we're maybe a guy shared something he's excited to be like we talked about in a prior podcast, is he's excited because he told the truth, you know, so he's in this mindset should be moving forward.

Jim Farm

I was kind of describing it because you're the king of metaphors. I always kind of say it's, you know, they take this approach. We want to fix the kitchen sink before we put the fire out in the living room type of thing. Right? You know, like, we need to work on this marriage and it's like, let's work on, you know, the fire over there first.

Greg MIller

Yeah, he's kind of really focusing on what the priority is. And really it's about, you know, understanding the choices I've made and the behaviors I have and letting my wife be a part of that. And what's true is the wife many times has an intuition. You know, they she had spidey senses. There was that relationship that never felt clean.

Greg MIller

And she had concerns about that. And so for years, you've denied that that was anything but just a coworker or a friend. And what's true is it did become sexually inappropriate, or maybe there was an emotional affair. And so she may ask the question, I need to know what is the situation with this particular person? And we would encourage that.

Greg MIller

In that moment, you were honest and you just say, and and if possible, that would be a great conversation to have with the couples therapist. And it may take the husband having the courage to say, one of the things I want to talk with our therapist or one when we are with the therapist, or maybe while you're with the therapist, just say, you know how you've been asking me that question, and I know this is going to be difficult to hear, and I've not been honest.

Greg MIller

And what is true is it was more than just a coworker or a friend, and then you just deal with that truth. But it's not fair for that wife to be waiting until the full disclosure to to get that information that she's been wanting.

Rebecca Dekkers

When it again, like it's often about how we do things versus, you know, the what if for most wise if she senses, you know, like if we're again trying to do recovery by the old rules of addiction, where he manages the information and she's left somewhat powerless, she just needs to take whatever he's willing to tell. Understandably, that's going to make her.

Rebecca Dekkers

Feel pretty hopeless, feel pretty shut down, like she's going to have a lot of big feelings about the sense that he still gets to manage. And I just get left powerless. And, you know, as somebody who works with the wives, I want her to be leaning into always that I can make good choices about, you know, do I want to?

Rebecca Dekkers

No details. Do I, like, do I and to really consider, you know, perhaps I don't in some ways want to know too many details, but I want her to come to a place where she chooses that rather than being told, you don't get to know that. I've. I don't think that's good for you. It really we want her to be feeling in her agency.

Greg MIller

Right. Well, and in fact, at the men's workshop, one of the things that I say to the men every month is that if your wife asked you a question, you answer it honestly and thoroughly. Yeah. And what may be true is he's thinking, I don't think you should know that, or I don't think it's helpful for you to know that.

Greg MIller

But if you say that, you just come across as hiding in line and that's not going to serve the couple ship. Yeah. And so if she ask a question, you answer the question. And, you know, I do think that one of the challenges is for many of us, we have this belief that information creates safety. So if I have enough information then I can be safe.

Greg MIller

And what I think is more helpful is to recognize information contributes to my safety. But ultimately I'm responsible for my own safety. And sometimes women have to realize I have all this information. I still don't feel safe, and then maybe begin to look at what really, actually can create safety for me other than more information. And I would also say to the women is typically, there's a reason why you have that question.

Greg MIller

You're just like the men. There's a reason why we act out. There's something going on for us. There's a reason why the wife has a question, and it may be about that relationship with her husband. It may be about a previous relationship that she's had. It may be about some other thing that she's been exposed to. But typically, if she can figure out, why do I need to know the answer to that question?

Greg MIller

There's there's something significant for her in that. And so that's part of what we're wanting. Is there to be a safe conversation where the wife is getting the information that she needs. And the wife also has a recognition of some understanding of what information can do, and it can't do.

Jim Farm

Well, I think oftentimes to one of the sometimes what couples need early on is they need a separation, what we describe as a redemptive separation to create some safety early on, just because the interactions become so volatile at times, you know that sometimes we'll recommend that, you know, if you're one of those couples that does get into those high conflict, it doesn't feel safe.

Jim Farm

Every time we have a conversation type of thing is we will recommend a separation of redemptive separation early on.

Greg MIller

What's challenging is it the system itself is difficult because we are going to ask the spouse to wait a certain amount of time, and it can vary based upon a variety of different factors. And so the more empowered she feels in the waiting, you know, if she feels like this is a passive waiting, if she feels like she's just having to bide her time, if it's like her life has stopped until this full disclosure happens, then it makes perfect sense that there's going to be for it to happen so she can feel like she can get on with her life.

Greg MIller

But if she can have an understanding of active waiting, that that there are things that she can do in the waiting, and there are ways that she can take care of herself, there are things that she can do to support herself, and maybe part of it is really work on some healthy detachment from her husband in the waiting.

Greg MIller

And again, when she has those promptings and questions that she feels safe enough to be able to answer them. You. You mentioned this earlier, but what we would hope is in the full disclosure, for the most part, the information isn't brand new, but it is something that is being offered in a structured way. And the thing I say about the full disclosure is for the man.

Greg MIller

He is committed to being open and honest and transparent about everything he remembers. And for the wife, she is open to being open and she gets as many opens as she needs to the possibility that he might be telling the truth. It's not about trusting him in that moment. It's not even about believing him in that moment. It's simply that she is open to the possibility that this might be the truth.

Greg MIller

It might be the story. And, you know, I've been a part of full disclosure. We're even in the full disclosure. The man wasn't being honest about what was going on. And so what we know is that's not going to serve the couple ship. In fact, it's actually going to create more chaos because here's this effort, to be honest.

Greg MIller

And now it's discovered, even in the full disclosure, he's not being on it. And so one of the challenges I give to the men is in every man's story, there is something that they are afraid is too much. It's the bridge too far. It's the thing she can't handle. It's that last 10%, and they're tempted not to share that.

Greg MIller

And if they don't share that, it just shoots them in the foot and kind of blows up the whole idea of the full disclosure.

Jim Farm

Almost every time to.

Greg MIller

Yeah, yeah. Because the truth in some way will come out, you know.

Jim Farm

Yeah, yeah. And I would say this to, you know, just for some of those couples is there's been quite a few disclosures I've delayed, you know, and sometimes the wife will get upset with me, like, why are you delaying this? But more times than not, the wife will thank me because he changed because of the delaying it a little bit.

Jim Farm

His heart around doing the disclosure was a little bit different than if he had had done it months prior.

Greg MIller

Well, and there's a and Rebecca, I'm sure you've seen this, but there's a big difference with a man who is doing it out of obligation or fear or shame versus the man who's able to find enough of his wise adult and is doing it out of desire. Now, he doesn't desire to share the information that is going to be difficult and painful, but the desire is to be an honest, trustworthy person.

Greg MIller

And it's that idea that we can never get anybody to trust us. We can only be trustworthy, and then they get to decide what they're going to do. But there is a shift. I believe that when a man wants to be trustworthy, and that's what's motivating him, to be honest, in the full disclosure.

Rebecca Dekkers

And on occasions when perhaps Jim has press pause on it, it does often, if there is that shift, there's such a difference because it's not it's not really worth pushing through to get it. I know the wives want it so bad and they want to, but if he's not in a place of being ready to offer it in that, in of that kind of motivation, it's it's not going to be helpful.

Jim Farm

Right? Yeah. And I think it's painful for the spouse. It's almost more traumatizing to know you're getting a disclosure, but it's an obligatory disclosure. It's not hey, I want to be honest and truthful.

Greg MIller

Well, and, you know, I would even say the full disclosure is a means to an end. You know, the purpose of it is not the full disclosure. It's what might be possible when a full disclosure is done. Well, it's what's on. But beyond that, it's a greater sense of safety. It's a greater sense of connection. The wife now has some information, and she can make some wise choices based upon the information that she has.

Greg MIller

The man you know can feel a sense of being honest and transparent. And, you know, even if the wife has a strong negative reaction, he can know that he did his part and being open and honest. And so if I'm just doing it as a means to an end or I'm just doing it to check the box versus seeing there's something on the other side of this, it's also going to limit the the effectiveness of the full disclosure.

Jim Farm

And it takes a while, you know, because I've always said, you know, there's lots of defense mechanisms that have been used to maintain or cover up this pain, you know, and so it takes a little bit longer for some guys than others to, to kind of work through some of those things.

Greg MIller

Yeah. One of the things that we tell them in at the workshop is it's okay and expect your wife to ask the same questions over and over again. And how you respond says something about you. And, you know, you may be tired of answering that question, and it may be important that you just answer it each time it comes up.

Greg MIller

And some of it may be about reassurance, some of it may be about where the wife is in a particular moment. But for you as the husband, it's that idea of I want to be open and honest. And if she needs to ask me that question, I'll answer it again. And really, the hope of the full disclosure is not that everything is settled, but it allows things to begin to settle.

Greg MIller

And we do hope that after a full disclosure, in time, there can be a shift in the relationship, either a desire or belief to exit it or to start investing a little bit more in it.

Rebecca Dekkers

You know? And I have a lot of compassion, I think, for the husbands as they sort of feel hopeless when, okay, the questions keep coming up. The questions they often the thing I hear from the wives is, you know, he's beginning to feel hopeless. He's feeling like it's it's never going to end or it's not working. And I get that because one of the things I tell couples often is that this, this stage of, of her trying to integrate a lot of new information, her trying to get enough information to feel safe, even as we it it often is longer than we would like.

Rebecca Dekkers

You know, I think the great desire for a lot of husbands is that I could answer the question one time and then we're we answered that one. We don't need to do it again. And so my encouragement, I guess, for a lot of the husbands is that it? It does take longer than perhaps is comfortable and longer than than perhaps feels helpful.

Rebecca Dekkers

But if I continue to show up with openness, we you will get to the other side. I really promise that eventually, you know, as she continues to do her work, because there can be different reasons why I can't let a particular question go. And that's in some ways my work to continue to help her figure that out. But the more you can show up with openness, I promise you will get to the other side.

Rebecca Dekkers

It does last, like I said, longer than you would like. But, you know, let's talk about maybe a little bit about what are some of the frameworks for couples to to move through that. You know, I think sometimes some things that are helpful in those early stages is to set time limits. You know, it can be things like, you know, we go, you know, every week we go for a little walk.

Rebecca Dekkers

Not every week, I'd say maybe, you know, on the front end, we're going to need to make opportunities for these conversations to happen. You know, say every other day we go for a two mile walk. And when that walk is done, maybe we can keep it back to light and polite for a period of time. Yeah, yeah.

Jim Farm

Yeah, I like that idea because we talk about that post disclosure oftentimes is, you know, because we often say wives will probably have more questions once they leave from the disclosure. And we usually encourage them to plan a time rather than, you know, he's doing the dishes and you ask him this question, all of a sudden he's like, where did that come from?

Jim Farm

You know? So he's not in that place of, hey, you know, being truthful and being honest, but it's being, you know, having that time that's designated. So it's not a reactionary type of thing.

Greg MIller

Well, and the benefit of scheduling it for that, you know and two mile walk is impressive.

Jim Farm

And you do that during your runs right.

Greg MIller

Back to know that in the walk, this is the place where we can talk about this. And so as the husband, I can be more grounded. You know, one of the things I always say is your best bet of it going, well, no matter what it is, is that you are grounded as a wise man. So your best bet of a conversation about your acting out, going well as you being grounded in your wise men and you being in your truth and being out of your shame.

Greg MIller

And that takes them preparation, you know, and so to know, okay, this is the time we're going to talk about this. And it always has to be fluid. It can't be rigid, you know. Yeah. But at the same time, if a wife knows this is going to be the time where I can ask questions or we can talk about this specific thing or I can share, you know, I think one of the things that is true is it just takes a lot of time and maybe a lot of words for the wife to feel like she's able to communicate how much you've hurt me.

Greg MIller

Yeah. And we would love for it to be said once and that be enough. But the profound of the hurt just takes time to be able to communicate that. And instead of the has been seeing that as her being stuck, allowing that to maybe be an indication that she's moving forward by acknowledging the hurt and naming the hurt, maybe that's allowing her to move forward in the hurt.

Jim Farm

Yeah. I often encourage guys to not think about it like, hey, why does she keep asking these questions 100 times? It's more as she's checking to see if she's still experiencing you the same way, you know, is, am I still experiencing you as wanting to be honest, to be authentic? You know, because I think it's more about that right brain stuck emotion.

Jim Farm

I don't trust you. So I'm checking to see if I'm going to experience you the same way. Right? Rather than I'm going to get a different answer at this time.

Greg MIller

Yeah. It's also true is questions are an investment and engagement of the relationship. Yes. You know, as long as there's questions that means that there's still interest, there's still engagement. It may not feel like that, but probably the thing to be more aware of is if there's apathy. Yeah. If there's detachment and distance, that is also telling you something.

Greg MIller

And so instead of seeing the questions in these conversations as a threat, see them as an opportunity and a recognition that she is still interested enough to ask me these questions. So maybe there's possibility that we can move forward. Okay.

Randy Evert

Well, thank you so much again, Jim and Rebecca and Greg for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast. You've really set the table for couples that are contemplating going through full disclosure. I think it's a great prep course, and we hope that this podcast has been helpful to all the couples out there. We invite you to visit our website, Faithful and True, where you'll find lots of information and online information and registration capabilities at Faithful and True.

Randy Evert

We hope that this will be a big aid for you in your healing journey. We hope that this coming week will be a week for you that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.