Healthy Sexuality: Relational Dimension 2

Mark Laaser

Codependency means I'm trying to manipulate the reactions and the presence of someone in my life. One of the ways to look at control being surrendered is if you're doing something for your spouse, what is your motivation for doing it? If it's fear and anxiety of what their reaction will be, that's codependency. If it's surrendered control, you're basically going to do stuff for them out of love and service, not expecting anything in return.

Mark Laaser

So when you surrender control of your spouse, you're basically letting go of trying to manipulate their reactions. That's an incredibly important thing to build trust. In other words, the spouse will perceive. He's not trying to fool me, deceive me, manipulate me, and control me. Maybe now I can start trusting him.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the podcast. I'm Everett, your co-host, and we'd like to bring a legacy presentation to you today featuring doctor Mark Lazar, the founder of Faithful and True. Today's episode is on the Healthy Sexuality series and today's episode is Relational Dimension Part two. This has been a series that has been quite well received by our listeners. We hope that you'll enjoy the words of wisdom shared by doctor Mark Lazar today.

Randy Evert

Here now is part two of Relational Dimension.

Mark Laaser

Randy. We're going to continue our conversation, evidently about the relational dimension. We got into it last week in our show on that that unit in the Faithful and True workbook, and we discovered that there's so much material in it that we didn't get all the way through it so well.

Randy Evert

I noticed in listening back to last. Week's show.

Mark Laaser

Mark.

Randy Evert

That you even mentioned it on the show as we got into it and you said, you know, the more we have jumped into this subject, there's so much more that we really didn't get enough time to discuss. And towards the end of the show, you had gotten into briefly approaching the subject of the contracts. The workbook actually mentions six independent contracts that are a dimension of the relational unit here, including sexuality, fighting, communication, roles, play, and spirituality.

Randy Evert

And you touched on the fact that you and Deb used to have a contract for a Friday night date night.

Mark Laaser

That's kind of a contract about having fun, particularly in our field where there's been, you know, infidelity and so forth. You know, the couples don't think about going out and having fun together. So, we found out that it was just really important to take that more intentionally. These contracts are about I think the key word here is intentionality.

Mark Laaser

Not leaving anything to chance or not leaving anything to unspoken expectations for things. Back in those days when we were doing a lot of work with Recovering Couples Anonymous, we found that, for example, one of the contracts that was important in the early stages was teaching couples how to have a what we used to call a fair fight.

Mark Laaser

Today, we call that a safe conversation contract. And with that, we basically ask the couples to think about ways that they talk, communicate, fight, that make them feel unsafe. And, you know, things come up like yelling, screaming, profanity, blaming, name calling, things of that nature. Also, things come up about, you know, where it is, like in certain places in the house, in front of the kids, in the car, on the phone.

Mark Laaser

And basically that contract starts out by having a couple list things that when they happen, they, they, they make the couple feel unsafe. And then we turn that around and say, okay. Where would. Where would a safe conversation happen? When would it happen? You know, timing is important. A lot of couples, like somebody will bring up something before right before someone else has to leave for work or right before they go to bed, or right before someone else has something important to do.

Mark Laaser

And we've just found that establishing a contract for when this happens is important, and also maybe that it has a time limit so that, you know, maybe a half hour's worth is what you need. And if you don't get something resolved at the end of that half hour, then you decide to take a break, a pause, a timeout and reschedule the conversation.

Randy Evert

I thought it was interesting last week when you threw in the the comment about not using the term you so much in because of the accusatory nature of that.

Mark Laaser

Well, usually when you start a statement with you, it's generally about some judgment or some kind of blaming, placing your in or about what the other person is doing. So we have this thing here, which we should probably cover in another show. It's hard to do without some visualization, but it's our demonstration of the three. Whoops. Some people out there listening will be familiar with it.

Mark Laaser

But basically, if you're coming from your own hoop, so to speak. It's taking your own inventory, starting with I statements. I believe my expectation is my experience is my woundedness is, my belief, stuff like that, as opposed to you did this when you do that, I, you know, that kind of thing. So this that's kind of couples communication strategies one on one.

Mark Laaser

I mean, you can go to a lot of different workshops at a lot of different places, including some of our churches, and learn how to have safe conversations using eye language and active listening. And that could be part of the contract in terms of the how you have the conversation, the when, the where, you know, establishing rules and boundaries for that timing and so forth.

Mark Laaser

Those are all important parts of the safe conversation contract.

Randy Evert

What is the sexuality contract entail?

Mark Laaser

Well, you know, a lot of our couples, when they have experienced what they do with infidelity, you know, in all its different forms, you know, there's oftentimes a period of sexual abstinence or sexual coming apart, meaning that, you know, the the violated spouse at that point doesn't really feel like being sexual with someone who has committed infidelity. So there's usually a period of time where, you know, one of them is is in a separate bedroom, one of them is maybe even out of the house, or they're still in the same bedroom.

Mark Laaser

But, you know, the one spouse, the offended spouse doesn't really feel like being touched. Even so, at some point in the couple's healing journey, we know that we may have to be intentional to bring sexuality back in. And it may mean, like we had a couple this week that decided, after an 11 month in house separation, that the husband was finally going to move back into the bedroom and moving into the bedroom.

Mark Laaser

They were going to be in the same bed and so forth, but they decided not to bring a full blown genital sexuality back into the picture yet. So maybe in a month when they feel safe, you know, being in the same bedroom, we will start introducing more overt sexuality. And some of the couples, perhaps even throughout their entire history, have had some level of sexual dysfunction.

Mark Laaser

So a sexuality contract might include a contract to get some professional sex therapy for any kind of sexual dysfunctions that might be present. Basically, one of the things in a sexuality contract is to help distinguish the difference between healthy touch and sexual touch. So, a couple may say I or one of the people may say, I'd like to hold your hand with apologies to the Beatles.

Mark Laaser

And that doesn't mean that I want that to lead to being overtly sexual. I want to give you a hug. I want to kiss you. I'm not intending for this to lead to more full blown sexuality, so that we can distinguish the difference between healthy touch and genital sexuality.

Randy Evert

Especially when you take into consideration. We're walking through the mall. Well.

Mark Laaser

Thank you, Randy. There might be a contract for no PDA, as we used to call it, public displays of affection.

Randy Evert

There's a time and a place for everything.

Mark Laaser

That's right. Yeah. Debbie and I go back to our high school, where the morning announcements every day over the loudspeaker said no neck, clutching waist and circling her hand, holding in the halls. So, you know, it's making everything intentional. It's not leaving anything for granted. It's not leaving expectations on verbalized. A lot of times, sexuality is something that we don't talk about.

Mark Laaser

We just kind of feel like it's something we spontaneously get into. So this can include a lot of different things. This this again, could be like so many of our topics are the subject of an entire show. Exactly. That kind of.

Randy Evert

I was intrigued by the, the the contract that deals with roles. What? Tell us a little bit. What? What does that entail?

Mark Laaser

Well, the role contract has to do with how we were raised in terms of the modeling that we had about gender. So that in my family, pretty classic Greatest Generation stuff, meaning my parents were the greatest generation. So the husband goes outside the home, works, produces the income, the the wife stays home, raises the family, does the domestic work of the home.

Mark Laaser

And that's the that's the modeling that we saw now beginning in the 60s and 70s. Some of this changed with the women's liberation movement and some, you know, actually very good things that came out of that. So the expectation that a lot of women have today is to be able to work and to be able to share parenting responsibilities.

Mark Laaser

So we just think, again, intentionally, couples need to talk about what their expectations are about that and share responsibilities for the domestic work, the income producing work, and not leave anything unspoken about that.

Randy Evert

My wife and I have a wonderful divide and conquer type of a relationship where, I actually have great pride in the job that I do as the laundry guy. And in days gone by, you couldn't fathom the father or the husband being the head laundry provider.

Mark Laaser

Nor could you fathom, I think the fact that the woman might go out and actually earn more income than the man.

Randy Evert

Oh, without a doubt.

Mark Laaser

That would have been there would have had some kind of meaning attached to it for the average man and his ego. I think a lot of this is about ego and pride. But, you know, the the healthy couple is going to be able to work at these chores and role descriptions, you know, as a companionship.

Randy Evert

Well, last week you touched on the play contract in which you were saying how you and Debbie had a contract in which every Friday night you had contracted with a babysitter to show up at the house, and whether you were going to use her services that night or not, she knew that she was going to be paid, which really kind of put it on your and Deb's plate to let schedule something so we can go out and have some fun.

Mark Laaser

Yeah. And one of the things we discovered there is that even when we were dating, you know, we kind of did conventional things that, you know, what, what couples at our high school and colleges did. I mean, you you went to movies, you went out to eat, you went to parties that were organized by your friends. You you went to dances and proms and homecomings and things of that nature.

Mark Laaser

And even when we went to dances, we really didn't know how to dance. So, I mean, it was just kind of swaying to the music, right, in those days. Right? So, you know, these days, Debbie and I have done a play that includes going on golf, vacations, going to golf school, taking dance lessons, going to concert series, going to plays, you know, other things like that that we've had to figure out.

Mark Laaser

We really enjoy. And again, what is our key word in this whole contract thing? It's intentionality trying to figure out what we do to have fun, to play, to laugh together. Even this coming weekend, which is a weekend that we have free before we do some international travel, we we decided, you know, we've got a free weekend. What are we going to do to play this weekend?

Mark Laaser

Well, one of the things that's actually can be related to is the sexuality contract. So that if a couple is deciding to be abstinent for a while, which is usually, you know, part of our healing journey for the average addict to detoxify his brain and, and reset the expectation levels in the neurochemistry of his brain. So, you know, the average couple in our program is going to do, you know, a period of time where they have mutually agreed, intentionally agreed not to be sexual.

Mark Laaser

But during that time, we also believe that it's important to have a spirituality contract so that they can now intentionally decide to do something that's spiritual in nature. And that might be a variety of things. It could be praying together, studying scripture together, going to a Sunday school class together, going on some spiritual pilgrimage. One of our couples, of the the Roman Catholic faith, was telling us this week that they went on a pilgrimage to particularly religiously significant place over in Wisconsin.

Mark Laaser

And they they spent the whole day there just kind of being with each other. Trying to understand the importance and meaning of whatever the place represented.

Randy Evert

Well, enough about Lambeau Field.

Mark Laaser

Thank you. Randy. It was. Yeah. I guess for some people in Wisconsin, that is a religious experience. But.

Randy Evert

Well, when you said pilgrimage in Wisconsin, I could only imagine the thing I've seen, the Vince Lombardi image of him dressed as the Pope, and I just. I'm sorry I tied the two together. Probably erroneously.

Mark Laaser

You probably did. I think it had more to do with some cathedral someplace over there. And we're not talking about Lambeau Field.

Randy Evert

All right, then we will march on. Does that leave us with anything more that you want to say about the contracts?

Mark Laaser

Contracts are really just, intentional decisions on the part of a couple to be companions and to rather than leave things to chance, leave things on, talked about not voicing and verbalizing expectations. It's basically making a lot of functions in life. As a couple more intentional.

Randy Evert

All right. All right. That clears that up. The the remaining section of this relational dimension is restoring trust.

Mark Laaser

The seven things that I think about that, that are important in helping a couple reestablish trust after there's been some level of infidelity. The first one is to recognize that couples are oneness. We say with the sea there that it's Christ centered. And it goes back to Paul's teaching in Ephesians five, and also Jesus talking about the Genesis quote, where a man and a woman become one flesh.

Mark Laaser

And then Paul infusions five says, what am I talking about? I'm talking about the relationship of Christ to the church. So we just think that when when we work with people here, we know that the individuals involved, the husbands, the wives, they both need to be on their own personal healing journey. But if couples are a oneness, the oneness of their relationship is also an identity of and to itself.

Mark Laaser

We were impressed about this when our daughter, Sarah was getting old enough to be in that social place with friends where they were talking or, you know, sending notes or whatever they were doing. We heard her talking on the phone one night to her, one of her friends, about her parents. You know, it wasn't, you know, Mom and Dad.

Mark Laaser

It wasn't Mark or debit, you know, it was her parents. You know, in the minds of some kids, parents are a collective identity that that just reaffirmed for us. We're a oneness where a one flesh union. And what that basically means in terms of establishing trust is that there's there's a level of understanding of the spirituality and the covenant of that.

Randy Evert

Well, the second of these principles is that healthy trust must be committed.

Mark Laaser

Committed, meaning that if you're going to establish trust back in the relationship, there must be a commitment to pursue their relationship, to stay the course, to not threaten divorce later on. You know, much after this was written, Debbie wrote her book for spouses. She called it closing the door, meaning that, well, you know, we may not have the faith and confidence yet that we can stay married forever.

Mark Laaser

We at least make a decision for six months, 12 months, 18 months to, to not threaten divorce, not talk about divorce, not see lawyers, but to close the door on that idea to be committed to the relationship.

Randy Evert

The third of these being that healthy trust must be continuing.

Mark Laaser

That's just a reminder that trust is not some overnight thing that all of a sudden happens. One of the things that always amazes me is that when guys come to our workshop and that's a three day experience. Now, some of them are three, three days sober, seven days sober. They go home after the workshop and they basically make statements to their spouse like, you can trust me now.

Mark Laaser

I've been transformed, I've been healed. I've I've got a new commitment to be sober. Trust is an ongoing developing thing. It's it's not just about sexual purity, by the way. It's also about, one of the other seeds that comes up here, and that is consistency. So if you're if trust is continuing, its ongoing, it's a lifetime journey at this point.

Mark Laaser

We always have to be trustworthy for the rest of our lives. It's just a recognition, I think, particularly on the part of the men struggling with addiction, but also their spouses. But I think sometimes in the church, there's an expectation that's been out there that the spouses need to forgive, forget, trust. Again, the the addicts tend to be impatient about that.

Mark Laaser

But I think trust is built when we both know this is going to take a while to, to feel again.

Randy Evert

Well, the fourth principle, the fourth, see if you will, seems to strike me as a key one. And that is that healthy trust must be communicating.

Mark Laaser

Communicating means that most men struggling with addiction. I'm sure that's true of women. Also, they might struggle with addiction is that they are chronic liars. They are deceivers. They, misrepresent the truth. They they do a lot of different kinds of line. Even if you were to ask them how they were really feeling, they'd say they were feeling fine, which is a lie, because they're not feeling fine.

Mark Laaser

So communicating is about telling the truth. Basically, this is about telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I heard a speaker talk about the the oath that we take when we testify in a try. It covers both are committing a lie and the omission of truth. Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Mark Laaser

And that may also include a period of time of going through what we call full disclosure and telling the entire history of your sexual and immoral activities from birth to the present.

Randy Evert

All right. Or next. See, you just touched down a moment ago with consistent.

Mark Laaser

Consistency means that even after the men struggling with addiction gets sober from the immoral sexual activities, their behaviors might be inconsistent. They they may say, oh, well, I'll be home for dinner at 5:00, and then they show up at eight because they all of a sudden got distracted at work or, you know, whatever. Well, for the spouse who's struggling with trust, you know, that the husband is is a liar.

Mark Laaser

Then you you could be lying about when you're coming home, or I'll take the kids. I'll pick up so-and-so after school today. And then Joey's standing there all by himself for a couple hours because dad has forgotten to do it. We actually had that example this past week. So it's learning how to be faithful in all of your activities.

Mark Laaser

To be a man of integrity, a man of valor. The name of our radio show. And be consistent in all of your behaviors.

Randy Evert

Your sixth principle here says that healthy trust must be considered.

Mark Laaser

Consider. It means that I think, particularly in our healing journey from infidelity, it means that we would not expect our spouses to trust us too fast if they still continue to have pain, heartache, tears, anger, anxiety that we're we seek to be patient about that. We seek to be considerate. We're the ones that have created the damage, and we need to allow them time to heal, to expect them to heal too soon, to expect them not to have reactions.

Mark Laaser

That is inconsiderate.

Randy Evert

And you wrap things up with the seventh principle being healthy. Trust must be control surrendered.

Mark Laaser

That is really speaking to the concept of codependency, which could be the seven C in and of itself, because most of the people we work with are codependent. Codependency means I'm trying to manipulate the reactions and the presence of someone in my life. One of the ways to look at control being surrendered is if you're doing something for your spouse, what is your motivation for doing it?

Mark Laaser

If it's fear and anxiety of what their reaction will be, that's codependency. If it's a surrendered control, you're basically going to do stuff for them out of love and service, not expecting anything in return. So when you surrender control of your spouse, you're basically letting go of trying to manipulate their reactions. That's an incredibly important thing to build trust.

Mark Laaser

In other words, the spouse will perceive he's not trying to fool me, deceive me, manipulate me, and control me. Maybe now I can start trusting him.

Randy Evert

I think our listeners have probably now fully understood why. Why we felt a second show to wrap up this relational dimension was necessary, because I think that's some very impactful information that you've shared with us today, knowing that we have men's groups out there listening to the Men of Valor program as we wrap up today's show. And I appreciate the the knowledge that you have shared with us today.

Randy Evert

Mark, what thoughts or assignments would you like to leave them with as we wrap up the show?

Mark Laaser

Well, I think one of the main thoughts, I mean, we don't have time to get into all the things they might think about. But if you look at any of these contracts, intentionality, if you look at any of the dynamics of trust building, there's going to be a lot of times when you doubt yourself, when you get impatient with yourself, when you get anxious and angry and so forth, when you might have problems with trust.

Mark Laaser

We're talking to men's groups, and this is where accountability comes in. Accountability doesn't just come in with reminding the guys in your group about boundaries for sexuality or their commitments to be sober. It's also about encouragement to start doing some of the other healthy things. We've been talking about the patients, the serving, the accountability is also about not being a codependent.

Mark Laaser

It's about intentionality. It's about if you want to start something, follow through with it. One of the principles of accountability is that we we don't just stop things, but we also start things. And accountability means we have encouragement to stay started as well as to stay stopped from the unhealthy stuff. So if you're listening out there, guys, all of us should have, positive things that we're trying to work on and also character qualities like patients that we're trying to work on.

Mark Laaser

So help each other with those things.

Randy Evert

We have a growing audience of women that we are learning. Are listening to the show. What what point can you leave them with?

Mark Laaser

Well, I hope the the points about trust have been helpful to you. And you know what I what I'd like for you to understand is that forgiveness is a process, and trust is a process, and that this may take months and years to develop and to you know, I'm thinking of what Debbie, my wife, would say about this.

Mark Laaser

One of the the main journeys of trust building for the spouses is to learn how to trust yourself in your own intuitions and your own perceptions of things. And then also, as we would spiritually believe, you know, your main goal is to trust God. So if you learn how to trust God, learn how to trust yourself. I think trust for others will flow out of those.

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True podcast featuring doctor Mark Lazar. This episode was the Relational Dimension part two. We hope that this was a great episode for you to enjoy. We also want to invite you to visit our website, Faithful and true.com, where you'll find many useful and helpful resources for you. You'll find over 550 additional podcasts like this one, and we invite you to check those out.

Randy Evert

We also want you to see the online information and online registration for the three day intensive workshops. We have the Men's Journey Workshop, which we offer every month. We have the Women's Journey Workshop, which we offer on a quarterly basis, and then we have two different Couples Journey workshops for you to check out as well. We invite you to do so.

Randy Evert

We appreciate your support and you're giving of your your your time to hear these meaningful and helpful messages. Until we meet with you again, we hope that the coming week will be a week for you that's filled with many blessings and with great vision.