Broken to Brave with Special Guest Tammy Gustafson

Tammy Gustafson

When I first when I first blew up for me, I went to a weekend workshop and that was they. They talked a lot about betrayal trauma. And honestly, I was like, oh my God. Like, why are we talking about me? This is his issue. And like, I don't want something. I don't want the focus now to be on me and a diagnosis to come onto me.

Tammy Gustafson

That was just my that was just me personally, I know a lot of people. It is very helpful to help them understand and for my clients is often very helpful to understand the trauma that is involved and what it's doing to your brain and your body and your nervous system. So that's very important. But looking back, I think it was really interesting because I did not really attach to that label for myself, even though I was a trauma therapist.

Randy Evert

Welcome to the Faithful and True podcast. I'm Randi Everett, your co-host, and today we have a very special podcast for you featuring our usual host, Doctor Greg Miller, together with the director of Faithful and True at Debbie Laser. Debbie and Greg are going to be interviewing Tammy Gustafson to talk about her new book, which is called Broken to Brave.

Randy Evert

This is a great conversation between Greg, Debbie, and Tammy, and we're sure to have you enjoy this podcast. Here now is Greg Miller, Debbie Lazar, and Tammy Gustafson and the Faithful and True podcast.

Greg Miller

Well, welcome to the Faithful and True podcast, and today we are excited to have our guest, Tammy and Deb. What did you just tell us a little bit about how you met her and how y'all began y'all's relationship?

Debbie Laaser

Yes, I'd love to. Well, it was several years ago, maybe three. Tammy, you can correct me, but I remember you asked me to be part of a new virtual conference that you were putting on and the Betrayal Healing Conference, and so I agreed to be one of the workshop speakers for that. And that ended up being another conference a little bit later.

Debbie Laaser

And I did that again. And then we decided it would be fun to have a virtual coffee date, and we did that. And then you came to Minneapolis to work on your book. And so we met here and had a lovely breakfast, and we've just continued the the friendship along the way, as well as being colleagues in the field.

Debbie Laaser

So it's been such a delight to hear all the things you do. She's Tammy Gustafson is such a talented person. I'm sure you'll all hear that and some of the things she's going to share with us. But as an LPs, also, she's a seasoned counselor working in the field with Betrayal Trauma for quite some time, and how she finds the time to do all these things she does with virtual conferences and traveling to Paris and all the other things just blows my mind.

Debbie Laaser

But we decided she's young, you know? And so that's how he pulls all this off. But I think you're going to love listening to some of what she has to say after having written her recent book, Broken to Brave. And we're going to talk about that.

Greg Miller

And I just happen to have a copy here, so we'll be talking about that.

Greg Miller

But there's three book sales that you've had.

Tammy Gustafson

Yes.

Greg Miller

Well, so tell me, why don't you introduce yourself? And I think what I would love to hear is how you even began to be interested in being a voice in betrayal trauma, and why that became important to you.

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah. Well, guys, thanks for having me. It's just so much fun to be here with you guys. So, yeah, I've been a counselor for, gosh, about 20 years now. And so I had always specialized in trauma, PTSD, loved doing eMDR with clients and whatnot. And then a little over a decade ago, my marriage blew up. And the reality of my husband's sexual integrity issues came out.

Tammy Gustafson

And that started the long, painful process, as everybody knows, listening to healing and our marriage held on by a thread for a long time. But he did the work and I leaned into my own healing. And so I made it. And he actually made it to our marriage, made it. And so that did not. Even though I was had been a counselor for a long time, I had zero desire to go into this area.

Tammy Gustafson

I really I did not want to be known for this, like it was still that wrestling with. I never wanted this to be part of my story, was still very alive and active, and so I was not one that wanted to use my pain for good. I just wanted to hide and let my story die a thousand deaths.

Tammy Gustafson

And so that is actually how it started. But there was one door that opened and that another one opened, and I kind of walked through them honestly, really kicking and screaming because it was just terrifying in the beginning to to be known for this or to talk about this. But over time, over time and really facing my fear and leaning into this and doing a lot of healing myself, it has become a passion, particularly to help betrayed women heal and pick up the pieces and find their worth and value and get their feet under them and find their strength.

Tammy Gustafson

So now it's a passion. But man, it it has been. It has been a journey. It has been a journey.

Greg Miller

Well, we here at Faithful and True have a lot of men and women who come through our program who they themselves are licensed therapists. So what did you see as the challenges of being a licensed therapist and going through this? And what were some of the benefits and gifts of already having that understanding of trauma?

Tammy Gustafson

You know, it's interesting because I, I didn't find that being a therapist helped me one tiny little bit particular in the beginning.

Greg Miller

Right. I agree.

Tammy Gustafson

I mean, it's one thing to like, know it. And I was I mean, I was still working throughout all of this, but it's another thing when it's yourself and it's your own story and it's just it's totally different. And so I knew like I had been focused on trauma this whole time. But it's interesting. I never resonated. No, I never resonated.

Tammy Gustafson

There we go with the term betrayal trauma. I really didn't actually when I first when my first blew up from me, I went to a weekend workshop and that was they. They talked a lot about betrayal trauma. And honestly, I was like, oh my, like, why are we talking about me? This is his issue. And like, I don't want something.

Tammy Gustafson

I don't want the focus now to be on me and a diagnosis to come on to me. That was just my that was just me personally. I know a lot of people. It is very helpful to help them understand, and for my clients, it's often very helpful to understand the trauma that is involved and what it's doing to your brain and your body and your nervous system.

Tammy Gustafson

So that's very important. But looking back, I think it was really interesting because I did not really attached to that label for myself, even though I was a trauma therapist. Right.

Debbie Laaser

And don't you think that's possible, Tammy, that people experience trauma at different levels of severity and those that maybe have brought earlier life trauma piled on with the current trauma are going to have more symptoms, let us say, or more severe symptoms than maybe those that haven't. And so that could have also affected you, even though you were a therapist and worked in the field, depending on what you brought into the current situation with your husband would have, I think, made a difference as well.

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah, I agree. And there definitely for me, there was definitely aspects of my past that, you know, that gets tricky, right? Because I think a lot of times betrayed partners that can get weaponized against them of like, and I'm not saying we're saying this, but particularly if their partner is not a good recovery, there's that. Well, you're overreacting because of your dad and what he did growing up.

Tammy Gustafson

Right? So I always get really I feel really tender towards betrayed partners who are listening for that. But the reality is, I know from my story there were there were times where I got extra hooked in areas, and it took me a long time sitting with those, and for me, those areas were particularly the outside community that was also that was vilifying me for this.

Tammy Gustafson

And I was like, why am I so hooked? Why can I not get past this and kind of move through it? And when I was able to sit with that, I was like, oh, these messages that I'm getting from them are very, they're very familiar from the past. And so I was fighting a double battle. I was fighting an external battle with them, and I was fighting an internal battle with me, because there's part of what they were saying that I actually believed because my unhealed stuff in the past.

Tammy Gustafson

And so I know that was an example for me, where it's that complicated part of we are all human beings who come into betrayal and whatnot with with life that's already happened. But that does not in any way absolve the betrayer from what he has done in the empathy and all that that I know we all agree upon.

Greg Miller

Yeah.

Debbie Laaser

Well, well, said Tammy. Yeah.

Greg Miller

When are the examples that we use? It's kind of like there's a couple and they are in a car crash and the husband is driving and he is completely responsible for the car crash. The wife had nothing to do with the car crash. However, she was in the car. And so she experienced the trauma, the pain, the chaos that the car crash created.

Greg Miller

And you're right, there are some partners who go, I wasn't driving, therefore I don't need help and support. And they're kind of denying the injury that occurred because of the car crash. What's also true is any previous injuries, accidents, whatever I brought into the car that my husband was driving, it makes perfect sense in this car crash that gets activated also.

Greg Miller

But like you've said, clearly, at no point is the spouse responsible for the injury. The husband was driving the car. And one of the things that we really work on with the men is take responsibility for the fact that you were driving the car and however your wife responds or your partner responds to that is about her and her journey.

Greg Miller

It's your job just to take responsibility as the driver.

Tammy Gustafson

I agree, and I would say the one thing if I could maybe add something to that, I feel like it's not. It's not just the responsibility of driving the car, but there's also responsibility. It's like for the one who did the betraying. It's not just what he did. If he if it was a male who, of course, you know, pronouns and all that, but if he was the one, it's not just what he did, but it's also him taking responsibility for what it did to her for like, the residual effects and for her, like, I talked to my clients a lot about, you know, when they get to a point, if they choose to get

Tammy Gustafson

to a point of forgiveness for giving him for what he did is different than forgiving him for what it did to you, because those are two very separate things. And they're they're complicated. But I think especially for the one who did the betraying, it's really important to grasp that, because I feel like that's where some of that pushback happens, which can really slow down the healing process for all parties.

Greg Miller

Right? Yeah. It's that that total ownership of I'm going to own what I did, and I'm also going to own and seek to understand how my choice is directly impacted you. And I think you're right, for a lot of men, that second part, to really be empathetic and to understand how it impacted their partner can be incredibly challenging, because part of what the addiction was doing was distancing themselves from their capacity to be empathetic.

Greg Miller

And so the journey is to reclaim this thing, this part of them that was lost.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah. And I suppose a lot of your work, which was able to name the trauma for women you're working with and even in your workshops to have people come forth to give names to things that they were experiencing, also help them to be able to claim it for themselves and eventually move through that. And there is something about being able to be specific about naming something that's happening in our life, even the information about what the betrayal was, to know specifically how that happened and when it happened, and to give us context for it.

Debbie Laaser

I think all of that helps us eventually to work on our healing journey.

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah, I agree, I think that process of naming things, I mean, even they've done research right about even like naming the emotion helps it process through there. So there's so much to I mean, it's tied into our story so deeply. And even if you if you don't know what your husband was doing and you know that whole disclosure process to be able to get the truth, to get the reality, to name what the truth was that that was going on, that you didn't realize, like, what is my reality?

Tammy Gustafson

And then to be able to go through there and for women particularly to be able to connect with themselves enough to name like, this is my emotions and this is how I'm feeling, and this is this is I'm angry about this and I am sad about this. And how could you do this? Her finding her voice and putting names to thing I think is so crucial and so empowering, which is such an important part of this process for her.

Greg Miller

Right. And what I would guess is for a lot of women, this is like a brand new experience. And so they don't have a context, they don't have language, they don't have an understanding of all that has happened. And it just takes time and encouragement, support, community to even find the language to to describe what is going on in their life.

Tammy Gustafson

Well, and if we take it a step further, because I know your audience is predominantly Christians, is am I correct on that? There's that whole extra. Honestly, I work with people of all faith beliefs and I find that that Christians, Christian women, they have the most to unburied, unpack before they can start healing. And it's because there's a lot.

Tammy Gustafson

And I'm curious if you guys have seen this as well, but in particularly really conservative faith Christian communities, there's so many messages that are put on women that they need to be small, that they need to not focus on themselves, that even boundaries are bad or, you know, they just need to pray for their husband and kind of be silent and help them.

Tammy Gustafson

And it's all about not focusing on themselves. And I don't mean to. Not every church is like this, of course. Right. But there is a lot of common things that keep women small in conservative Christianity that for them to to push through that and get to a place where they can find their voice and they can find their strength and they can honor the anger that God gave them, that God that God built into their system.

Tammy Gustafson

It is it is hard and it is very new for most. And so I really just want to name that to and honor that that it is manage so much work, so much work.

Debbie Laaser

I think what we tend to also focus on with anyone, and whatever faith, belief they're coming from, are the beliefs they bring into their life from that journey, their own spiritual journey to explore them and and really take a look at which ones are working for them and not. And that sounds a little odd, I suppose when we're in a spiritual journey, you don't think about, well, some of these aren't working for me, but I do believe as an adult we need to explore all of our belief systems and where they came from, and which ones represent the person that God calls us to be.

Debbie Laaser

And so, as you're saying, being able to talk about what you're feeling and thinking and meeting is an important part for anyone to have healing and presence in their life, in their relationships. And I strongly believe that we were all bird that way, not not to be silent. And so I think it is a lovely part of the process to just look at what are those beliefs, whether they're spiritual beliefs or beliefs of of what we need to be as a woman or as a parent or as a wife, all those different roles in our life, because many of them is, as I've often said, maybe need some updating because they haven't led us to

Debbie Laaser

the life of joy and peace that I believe God wants for us.

Greg Miller

Well, and I would even go the way that we talk about transformation. It's about becoming the person that God created you to be. And in order for a woman to become that person, she must have her voice. She must have her agency. She must have her yes. And her no. She must have vision and direction and clarity that is completely or not completely, but is separate from her spouse.

Greg Miller

And it is about empowering women to live fully into the woman that God created them to be. And I don't believe that's in opposition to their marriage. That's actually what enhances their marriage. And the scripture talks about iron sharpening iron. And lots of times we reduce that to just being about male relationships. But I actually think that's a description of marriage that when a strong, defined woman and a strong, defined man come together, they sharpen each other to become the individuals and the couple that God desires so very much.

Greg Miller

What you're saying is really helping women to find their voice and agency and ask those questions. Where did I lose that along the way? And if my faith experience has been a part of that, part of the journey of recovery is challenging, that old history and story, and maybe the way that faith was introduced to me.

Tammy Gustafson

You know, and I don't know too many women who have that faith journey, who have not gone through a crisis of faith in the process of this. Right. And I know that's so scary for a lot of women, for a lot of people, which understandably so. But but there's actually a freedom that I think what we're all talking about, there's a freedom to to redefine and better know yourself and really to better know God.

Tammy Gustafson

Maybe without some of the preconceived notions or whatnot. I like to say the clients and I say in the book, you know, we know that betrayal shatters the good, like we all know that, but betrayal shatters the bad to betrayal shatters everything. And and the beauty is, if you can say beauty in the shattering. I know that's hard, but.

Tammy Gustafson

But the ability where it shatters all of those things that maybe weren't serving you and it shatters all. Maybe the ruts that you were in and the way that maybe the things that you took on and it just kind of you went along with life, like we all do, and maybe don't have time to really evaluate those. It shatters all of that as well.

Tammy Gustafson

So now there is this excruciatingly painful but opportunity to look back at everything and go, okay, from here on out, what things do I want to pick up? What things do I want to keep? What things am I going to leave behind? And for betrayed partners, it's like we have we have a sacred responsibility to actually start to go what?

Tammy Gustafson

To look at that for yourself and to start to take responsibility for that, maybe for the first time and then to start to build out what you want life to look like in the future, what you want your marriage to look like in the future, if you choose to stay, and if he's doing the work. Because of course, that's always an option as well to stay or go.

Tammy Gustafson

But but I think there is something freeing, even in the depths of the pain, that everything is shattered. And now you get to decide moving forward.

Greg Miller

Well, one, what are the things I believe is that our theology works until it doesn't? Yeah. And so it's when life becomes bigger or more complex than our simplicity and our, our simple understanding of God. And what we do in that moment is what is transformative. In fact, you'll we talk a lot here at Faithful and True about PTG, post-traumatic growth.

Greg Miller

And it really is what I do when life is bigger than my faith. Am I going to keep a small faith, or am I going to really challenge to this bigger faith that helps me navigate the complexity of life, that really determines how I move forward? And what are the things that we just talked about? Was this idea of share a little bit about what has been shaped informed in you through this?

Greg Miller

How have you experienced growth from the trauma of the betrayal?

Tammy Gustafson

Oh, that's a big question, Greg.

Debbie Laaser

Without warning.

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah, I know, shoot from the hip here. No, I'm happy to. Well, I think there's there's so many levels to that one. I think for my for myself, I was a strong child, but somewhere along the way that got tampered down. Somewhere along the way, I was one of those people who was kind of made to be more small and who lost my voice and was kind of told, you know, some of the some of the messages that still rolling around in my head and really rolled around in my head while I was reading or where I was writing this book, is this idea of, don't think too highly of yourself, you know, and don't

Tammy Gustafson

you know, don't make waves, don't make anybody mad. And if anybody is mad, it's your fault. You need to be the one to fix it. Like these were kind of the messages be invisible. And if you're not invisible, the world is going to hurt you. These are the messages that I got growing up. And and I spent a lot of my life kind of stepping out of those and healing through those and deciding for myself what was right.

Tammy Gustafson

But man, when betrayal happened and everything did shatter.

Tammy Gustafson

I, I grew and I found my strength in my voice. Not in spite of it, but but through the process of healing. And so I am a very different person now than I was. Pretty betrayal. I will never be thankful for betrayal. Like I don't believe. You have to be thankful for the trauma that you went through, but the growth that did happen through it that I am grateful.

Tammy Gustafson

I am proud of myself. Like I, I have my voice now. I have my strength now. I'm able to speak and share about this rather than to like, crawl on a hole and say, I just want my story to die. Thousand deaths, right? But man, it took it took me in in places where I guess I didn't have to step in and be strong.

Tammy Gustafson

But I chose to, even through the pain. And as I did that, like step by step, then then I grew, then I grew. So. So I am very grateful that this whole entrepreneurial side of me, this whole all that like that did not exist beforehand. I mean, it's amazing the stuff that can come out if you really lean into it and lean into your healing.

Tammy Gustafson

But, you know, I also I faith wise, I had a huge crisis of faith. I was very angry at God and but I was okay with wrestling it out with him like he hasn't struck me yet.

Tammy Gustafson

And I.

Debbie Laaser

With the women you work with also that typically that they also have a faith crisis when they're working through the shattering.

Tammy Gustafson

I do, but I think it's I think sometimes women need permission, that it's okay, that it's okay, and that God is bigger than their frustration. And I like to use the analogy of, you know, if you if you have a child, like for all the parents out there. What would you prefer if they were upset with you or they misunderstood you, or they're angry with you or they don't like what you did?

Tammy Gustafson

Would you prefer that they walked out of your life? Or were, or would you prefer it that they turn and they confront you and they're mad at you and they yell at you and all that? And what would you prefer? And for me, I would. I would always prefer to stay in relationship. I would always prefer. And as a parent I would probably understand where they're coming from.

Tammy Gustafson

And so if we can apply that to God and go, he understands. He he stands on the side of the betrayed like he understands the the pain with that. And so I think a lot of betrayed women need permission, that they can fight this out with God. They can wrestle this out with God. They can be angry. God already knows.

Tammy Gustafson

So just say it like, say it to him and wrestle it out. And so there's a lot of what I have found is that a lot of the women that I've worked with, a lot of them struggle with the church for here on out. A lot of them don't return, but a lot of them really do. Their faith does stay very connected and does say even though it's hard, even though it's even though it's I don't know where it is.

Tammy Gustafson

It's hard. Right. But there is still like that faith can still be there, that connection with God, you can still wrestle through that and to separate that out from the church, because that's a whole nother topic. Right, right, right.

Greg Miller

Well, and especially for the women who have been hurt by how the church responded to the betrayal, I know that that's something that Deb talks a lot about, about the number of women that come through faithful and true. And not only do they have the betrayal and the trauma they experience from their husband, but when they did seek out support, encouragement, help from their local faith community, it actually was hurtful, not helpful, and in some cases harmful.

Greg Miller

And so that even complicates it more when the church doesn't respond well and basically encourages a woman to be small again versus allowing her to expand and be big.

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah. That was.

Debbie Laaser

Yeah.

Tammy Gustafson

That was part of my story. Go ahead. Debbie.

Debbie Laaser

I was wondering if you can tell us some about your book and what are some of your favorite things that you want women to know about having written this book, the focus of it. So we want to hear about your book. It's a great title, by the way. Broken to break. Yeah, yeah.

Tammy Gustafson

So this book has been on my heart for years and and really kind of the structure of it. Is that really what I developed is four phases that a betrayed partner walks through after life blows up. And it is it's there's a lot of phases and a lot of stages out there that can be really helpful. I think one thing that's maybe a little bit different about mine is I don't pull her out of the relationship because the reality is it's very she is very much in the thick of it with her spouse, with her partner at that point.

Tammy Gustafson

So it's really walking through her experience in strengthening her in these phases that she is going through within the relationship. And of course, it can get to the point where she chooses not to, but that usually takes some time. There's often a wrestling time, even if people do get there. So phase one I call reveal and that's the initial when you find out what's going on, that's the initial shattering.

Tammy Gustafson

And during that time, really the goal is to get the truth. And then there's a transition into phase two when you either have the full truth or when you know that you're not going to get the full truth. And that has to become the new foundation that you stand on, that you're not going to get the full truth.

Tammy Gustafson

And then that phase two is that messy middle where you're not sure if you're going to stay or go. You're not sure if he's going to do the work to heal or not. You're grieving. You're sad. You're angry. You're finding your voice. You're setting boundaries. There's so much that happens during that time. And then phase three kind of happens organically when it becomes clear the direction that the relationship is headed, whether the marriage is healing, whether it's going to end in divorce or this third path that I call the roommate path.

Tammy Gustafson

And this is where I think, actually a lot of women end up where he's done some work, he's maybe even done some good work, but he's not fully doing the work and he's not fully doing the work, and she doesn't want to leave, whether that's for kids, whether that's finances. There's all sorts of reasons that are so valid, but this is a group I actually worry about the most, because this is the group where it's death by a thousand cuts, and this is a group where a lot of times I see her lights start to dim.

Tammy Gustafson

So, so I honor that and name that you can. It doesn't have to be that way. But there's some pretty strong detachments and self-care that has to happen to make sure that you can stay and still thrive. And then phase four is this phase where all women come back together, no matter how the relationship ends or stays together, it doesn't really matter.

Tammy Gustafson

And this is where I have women walk into my office when they're like, you know what I, I it is time for me to focus on me. Like, and hopefully they've done some of that along the way. I was not good at that. Full disclosure, but hopefully they've done some of that good along the way. But then there's this phase where the crisis or the relationship is no longer in crisis.

Tammy Gustafson

Maybe it's ended, maybe it hasn't, but where she kind of leans in and go, okay, like looks around at the rubble that she's standing in picking up the piece and and going, okay, how do I how do I put my life back together? How do I financially get back on my feet again? How do I how do I start taking care of my body again, like, and really starting to look like this is this is a lot of the post-traumatic growth that I know you guys talk about a lot and that I'm so passionate about as well.

Tammy Gustafson

So these are kind of the four phases that I walk women through in the book. And but my my heart for this is that I wanted to reach you the pages and catch her and catch her so that she is seen and she is heard because it's so lonely and it can be so isolating on your own. And so I wrote this book not from a clinical perspective, although there's clinical stuff in there.

Tammy Gustafson

I wrote this book like a long conversation between me and a betrayed partner over coffee. And that's that was my heart throughout all of it. And just so she feels cared for and seen and wrapped up and also guided and empowered along the way to so that that's my that's my heartbeat for the book in a nutshell.

Debbie Laaser

It's a wonderful summary. And I think as we were talking earlier, naming these stages, I think can be very helpful to someone to know where they are, you know, and we all kind of like that direction and just having some idea of what might be coming. What is the next stage going to be like? I think can be very helpful and hopeful to someone as they're able to name where they are as well.

Greg Miller

So and I would also say, Tammy, one of the things I heard very clearly is and there's no judgment about where a woman is, because that's not helpful, but to give language and understanding and even validation kind of that it makes sense that you're in this space is really a gift that we can give someone, because they may have shame about where they are, they may have insecurities or fears about that.

Greg Miller

And just to validate it makes sense. You are where you are. And here's some context that may give you some understanding about where you are and maybe where you would like to go.

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah. Beautifully said.

Debbie Laaser

Before we're out of time, I want to ask Tammy about her trips to Paris, because I know that's another one of these things that she has found time and energy for. But tell us, what stage are you helping women with when you and what do you do when you go to Paris with other women?

Tammy Gustafson

Yeah. So the Paris retreats are for those farther along in the process there for those like late stage three or stage four. And it's really this idea of helping women. It's pausing, like pausing life in a big way. When you go overseas and you cross over the ocean and leaving, leaving everything behind and pausing long enough in a safe enough spot with other women who accept you and get it.

Tammy Gustafson

And just going, where am I? How am I doing? And what do I want from my life now, whether I'm with my partner or whether I'm not like, what do I want? And even more importantly, along the way with betrayal, man, we lose parts of ourselves. And I mean, life can do that, but betrayal does that a thousand fold, where it feels like there's parts of us that died or that we lost or that will never come back, and it feels like life gets so dark and heavy.

Tammy Gustafson

And part of this I purposely choose Paris because one I like Paris, but because it's the city, it's the city of lights. And there is beauty everywhere and there's adventure. So taking women out of the darkness and out of the heaviness, bringing them together in this safe place, and then having a week where we are living life together and we're kind of reignite them into life and to see joy and beauty and peace.

Tammy Gustafson

It's just it's beautiful to watch parts of themselves that they thought were dead or gone come back alive there and where they can see they're not dead and gone. Like those parts just went into hiding. And you just need to go and find them. But go and find them, because it feels so good to bring those parts back in and to heal and to feel whole again.

Tammy Gustafson

And so I get the honor of helping women walk through that process. And it it's so fun. It's so fantastic.

Debbie Laaser

It sounds like it. Too bad you couldn't go. Greg.

Greg Miller

I love Paris so well.

Greg Miller

Thank you so much for being with us. And again, the book is from broken to brave, and so we encourage our listeners to go and give it a try and allow this to be a part of their post-traumatic growth. And, Tammy, we also want to thank you for the support that you provide for Faithful and True, the fact that Deb regularly participates in your conference.

Greg Miller

You've invited others of us to be a part of that. So we really do appreciate the support that you provide. And thanks for being with us today and for our listeners. We are glad that you have joined us, and we hope again that this will be encouraging and supportive for you as you can continue the journey of becoming the person that God created you to be, and we look forward to joining you next time on the Faithful and True podcast.

Randy Evert

Thank you for joining us today on the Faithful and True Podcast. We hope that you've enjoyed this great conversation between Greg Miller, Debbie Lazar, and Tammy Gustafson discussing her new book, From Broken, Broken to Brave. And this is a book that you're going to want to order and you're sure to enjoy as well. We also want to invite you to visit our website, Faithful and True, where you'll find many great resources available to you, including information and online registration.

Randy Evert

For our three day intensive workshops. We offer the Men's Journey Workshop every month, and then several times a year we offer the Women's Journey Workshop and the two different Couples Journey workshops. So check all of that out at Faithful and True for more information and online registration. In the meantime, we hope that this coming week will be a week for you that is filled with many blessings and with great vision.